Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to take a moment to share something that's been on my heart, something I've been working on behind the scenes for a while now. I'm officially writing a book. This book is called let's Be A Practical Guide to Leading Through Change. And it's deeply personal to me. It's built from real experiences. The uncertainty, the challenges, the moments where I didn't have the answers but had to lead. This isn't just a leadership book filled with theory. It's about navigating uncertainty when there's no clear direction, building internal clarity when everything around us feels unclear, having courageous conversations, even when they're uncomfortable, and leading with value, especially when it's the hardest to do so. I'm also going into topics that don't get talked about enough, like what it feels like to be challenged, overlooked, and even bullied as an adult in a workplace. And how those moments shape the kind of leader you become. This book is for anyone who's ever thought, how do I lead when I don't feel ready? How do I show up when I don't have all the answers? And how do I stay true to myself in environments that challenge me? If this is you, this book is for you. I'll be sharing more about the journey behind the scenes moments and opportunities for you to be part of it as we go. So stay tuned, because this is more than just a book. It's a movement around how we lead through change together. All right, let's get to today's episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who've supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Our topic today is Thriving, Not Surviving Neurodiverse Professionals at Work. Our guest today is 150 heart centered human. Her name is Heather Jensey. Heather, thanks so much for joining us today.
[00:02:02] Speaker D: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to join you.
[00:02:05] Speaker C: Very welcome. How are things with you? What's been energizing you these days? Give us the tea, give us the deets, give us it all. What's going on?
[00:02:12] Speaker D: You know, we're kind of at the tail end of spring conferencing season, and conferencing has always been something that I enjoy in part because I get to go to so Many different states and connect with a lot of providers who support individuals in the intellectual and developmental disabilities space. And so it's really great to always just kind of be able to bump elbows with people who are out there doing great work and all the new things that are coming about and just really getting to connect with people that you wouldn't necessarily get to be around in your own career or in your own backyard.
[00:02:47] Speaker C: It's always nice to see people you've already met and meet new people. I love doing that. So it's great when you get an opportunity to do that. For sure. You know, we see people virtually, but that to actually be in front of them and see their face, it's. It's pretty cool.
[00:02:59] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:03:00] Speaker C: So glad to hear that things are going well and I love that you enjoy the conference season. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question that I ask all my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:03:14] Speaker D: I am.
[00:03:14] Speaker C: Okay, so my question to you is, if your life, leadership, and personal journey were blended into a smoothie, what ingredients would be in it and why?
[00:03:24] Speaker D: I would say, say that it would be something like really vibrant in color, but in terms of taste. Like something that you could drink every day. Right. Like not something that would be like a special treat, but kind of a good blend of something that's healthy but also just kind of really enjoyable. Like maybe something tropical, but also high in nutrients. I really blend my personal, professional and leadership world together. I think it's of part. Part of what? Love that makes me constantly learning. So, yeah, I think something that's, again, like, that you really love to have every single day, but it's also just going to feed you in the ways that you need.
[00:04:01] Speaker C: So personal, professional would be in your smoothie. That's awesome.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:04:05] Speaker D: That.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: That would be awesome. It would taste really good too, I'm sure.
[00:04:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:04:09] Speaker C: Well, thanks so much for having fun with me to get us started. Who are you and what really drives you to do the work that you do?
[00:04:16] Speaker D: Heather, you know, I've been asked that question before, and I kind of really just see myself as a regular schmegular gal. You know, I try to lead life with intentionality and to always do the right thing and not the easy thing. And, you know, that's really kind of served me pretty well throughout my personal and professional life, you know, both as a former IDD provider, now as a subject matter expert, and, you know, just kind of doing some different things with my career, and also as a Parent. So, you know, I again, like, even kind of with your smoothie question, there's really not a whole lot of hard division between who. Who I am as a woman, who I am as a. As a mother, who I am as a professional and a wife. Really, you kind of. You get what you get with me, and I'm pretty unapologetic in who I am, and I just try to kind of do right in all aspects of my life.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: I love that. And I was just talking to somebody today just about that very topic, and I was saying to them the exact same thing, that the Andrew that you see is the Andrew that you get in any aspect of my life. So whether you doing a podcast, being at an event, being in a meeting, at a barbecue, at a restaurant, at a convention, at a party, I'm the same person. So what you see is what you get. And I don't change the way that I am. It's just, this is who I am. I'm not pretending to be anybody. This is who I am. So I love that. I love that you're like that as well. I think that's probably why we got along so well.
[00:05:46] Speaker D: Yeah. You know, authenticity above all things, right?
[00:05:49] Speaker C: It is for sure. So, Heather, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about neurodiverse professionals in the workplace?
[00:05:57] Speaker D: You know, I think, you know, as some of these buzzwords and tones shift throughout, you know, my adult life and kind of more to come, some of these things have just kind of inherently held a negative connotation. Like sometimes when you think of neurodiverse, you automatically think maybe autism, you automatically think more severe autism. And because of life is a spectrum in many ways, as well as neurodiversity, I think it automatically means high support or something that comes with an extra added layer of something that may be negative, you know, but really it's not as complicated as people think. And I think most people carry a level of neurodiversity with them that they either understand about themselves or they don't, or they've already self identified. And so it's really not as interesting or complicated as people may think. And it's just more of a.
A way for you to understand kind of who you are and what your needs are and how, you know, kind of life happens to you and with you and, you know, just kind of how you kind of see and navigate the world. And I think that's pretty unique to, to most people and that neurodiversity really is just kind of a An extra added layer of context of who someone may be as a person.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: And I think what you said there, what makes sense to me is big part of it is communication and getting to know somebody. So building rapport with that person and getting to know them on a different level instead of making assumptions about person or who they are or what they do, if you get to know them, then you will see that side of them and maybe your thoughts might be a little bit different.
[00:07:27] Speaker D: I think maybe how, like how we see things, not necessarily what we see or, or how we perceive them, but kind of the, the, the relatability, I guess, in, in some ways, you know, when, when observing things or having conversations, I may pick up on things that are different. I may notice different things. Sometimes I tend to kind of mirror or match people's energy. That's just because I'm a really high masking person as a neurodiverse, you know, adult woman. And so again, I often think that being on the spectrum, having ADA kind of being neurodiverse in a couple of different lanes is arguably probably the least interesting thing about me, you know, personally, just because I kind of just am who I am and in kind of a really uncomplicated way. But sometimes when I communicate with other people who may not have the same personal experience as I am, I kind of see maybe how different or unique I might be to, depending on who my audience is.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: No, that makes, that makes total sense for sure. And it's just understanding who they are. And you're absolutely right. When you have ADHD or. I deal with ADHD as well. So sometimes when you're talking to somebody who doesn't understand it, then it's not that they look at you differently, but they just don't understand what could you possibly be thinking or why you think that way, or why you do things a certain way or why you speak that way, they just don't understand it and they won't be able to fully because it's not something that they deal with on a regular basis.
[00:08:51] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:52] Speaker C: So in your experience, what is the difference between simply surviving at work and truly thriving at work as a neurodivergent professional?
[00:09:00] Speaker D: I think it happens to be. To relate really directly back to team and leadership. I also think I've been perhaps, maybe luckier than others because of the field that I work in. Again, I've spent my entire career working with people with disabilities, whether those be, you know, in a neurological or neurodevelopmental lane, cognitive, behavioral. And so I think that that adds an extra added layer of familiarity. However, I think when we're looking at the workforce of people who support people with disabilities, we're often not really marketing to people with disabilities to support those with disabilities as well, in terms of, again, a broad spectrum of disabilities that, again, arguably, if you can walk the walk, you can talk the talk. And what better group of people to support those that we serve than ones that have maybe more commonality with them? I think sometimes that looks different depending on the industry that you work in or the level of familiarity and what that looks like. But I also think that comes from a leadership perspective of all people have value in different ways. And while my brain may look or operate differently than other people, that in a lot of ways makes me very valuable to teams, because my role in any group of people is not to be as good as you in the same exact ways. It's for us to have our own individual, unique disciplines, a hunger to continue to learn. And sometimes we know when our brains think differently, we see gaps in things from a team perspective that others wouldn't, and we bring things to the table that wouldn't necessarily be there if we were all the same. And we're kind of operating with the same. Same types of capacity.
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah, different ideas are okay in my mind. There's different ways of looking at things. There's different ways of doing things. And you're absolutely right. Our brains are going to be different than any other person. My brain is going to be different than yours, Heather, and vice versa. So when you talked about marketing people with disabilities, I love that because their brains are.
Are different. So why not have a conversation with them and see what their thoughts are and how they think about things? And I bet you a lot of organizations might be surprised at what the ideas and the things that they might come up with.
[00:11:07] Speaker D: I think it also kind of, again, that leadership perspective really kind of hits the ground running when you're looking at even marketing efforts. And so think about how difficult it is to apply for a job in general in today's day and age. And so you see an ad, you fill out a form, it brings you to a different website where you fill out a nearly identical form, which then brings you to a different page to fill out a survey that is largely the same as the form. And for someone who's neurodiverse and sees a lot of, like, just unnecessarily repetitive information, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna probably move on to the next thing, or writing text or language In a way that's really understandable or accessible or timelines of like, when do you apply for the job to the point where you actually get considered for an interview? And so taking all these things into account on like your audience of like who you're looking to hire, I think is important rather than just kind of generating some AI generative job description and slapping it on LinkedIn and Indeed.com and hoping that the right people kind of land in your interview chair. And so I think finding those people and inviting them into your businesses and into your world is, you know, really begins at the ground of how are we marketing and finding people and what does our, what do our own internal hiring practices look like to be able to reach people that we may not have before?
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. You just talked about applying for jobs. So what a great segue into what I wanted to talk about here. In your experience, as far as leaders go, what strengths and perspectives do Neurodiverse employees bring to organizations that are often overlooked or undervalued?
[00:12:45] Speaker D: In my own career, I've seen a lot of different ways that that happens. And I think it looks a little bit different for me now that I work not necessarily deeply integrated in the day to day of a provider services or working directly with the individuals who have disabilities. When I was a provider, I think that that looks differently depending on the person. But sometimes you have a rapport with individuals in a way that other people don't. It's almost like kind of like finding your people, right? Like we inherently become friends with people because of the kind of like that secret, like unidentifiable thing, right? We kind of vibe with people to a certain degree. And we don't just become friends with people because we meet them. There's some sort of unspoken kind of connectivity that really deeply bonds people beyond kind of like a surface level of like, I've met you, I know you, and I'm going to communicate with you. And so from a provider perspective, I think that when we're serving people, you find those deeper connections. They're in the job for the right reasons. You find that the individuals are maybe seen or heard or supported in different ways rather than kind of showing up, completing the job and then going home. It kind of becomes a part of you rather than something that you do from a 9 to 5 perspective. My role now from a leadership perspective in and kind of what I do outside of that world is really looking at value in what people are good at and the way that they do that. And so sometimes you May hear phrases like autistic burnout or people being overstimulated and working in the technology world and kind of the subject matter, expertise, perspective. Working on working from home has made me incredibly successful. For someone who gets distracted easily. Noises and maybe things that other people don't hear or see or being interrupted consistently, dings and the sights and sounds of day programs and things in the industry kind of breaks your focus and being able to, I call it closing the loop, if you will.
But now that I work from home, I'm really able to control my environment in the space that I work in and how I'm working. And so for people who maybe struggle with those things or are not in control of their own environment in an office setting or in a building, or require breaks or kind of quirky things that we do to self regulate, you have the ability to do that kind of more in your own way or when you're in your own space or you're in your own home. And sometimes people work better just because they don't really want to be around people all the time. We're not as social from time to time. And I've seen people accomplish incredible things with having diagnoses like autism and ADHD because they are able to manipulate their environment and their success from a professional perspective in ways that we do now that maybe pre Covid we weren't able to. Everybody was in an office, everybody was on site. And so there's a little bit more autonomy in how we work and we also have a lot more accessibility in how we work because a lot of jobs are virtual now. Whereas before you were just showing up to an office, the sake of showing up to an office. And so I think some jobs that maybe were not available to people who were neurodiverse or would not thrive in a traditional office setting now have more opportunities because more jobs are being taken virtually.
[00:15:51] Speaker C: I want to piggyback on something that you said which is valuable, what people are good at. So for example, I'm not a boxer, but there's a particular person that I'm connected with and what she does, she's training them on what they're good at. So she's not going to train them on something that they're not good at. And when I spoke to her about this, it made total sense to me. And I just wonder why a lot of leaders don't look at it that way, because if they did, I think you would find that you're going to get a little bit more out of people because they're more confident in an area, so you're going to get more engagement and more push out of them, for sure.
[00:16:29] Speaker D: Yeah, I think that ties into a couple of different things. Like when I've ever, whenever I've seen job descriptions, they're largely very lengthy, detail oriented, ish, but also kind of vague, like you're going to do this and all other duties as assigned, or like you're going to do this. But all of these kind of subcategories may or may not apply. And so sometimes the intentional vagueness of that creates an unintentional vagueness in the description of themselves. And so you could be doing one thing. You could be doing 12 things. You could be doing one thing one day and 12 things the other day. And really, people are inherently not good at everything. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. However, we are all usually willing to learn. And I think part of AI and virtual work has not really reevaluated work in itself. And so we have tools to be faster and more efficient and more on target with the work that we're doing and eliminating error. And we have not used that opportunity largely as a, as a, as a world to put less pressure on people. It has created an opportunity for us to be more productive and add more things to our job description and do all these things that perhaps again, we are not qualified or interested or good at doing. And so the goal of a human being is not to be 100% successful at 100 things. That breeds that. You are usually 1% successful at 100 things, and you're kind of mashing those things together. And so when you're looking at who you need within your organization, I think internally identifying the agency's needs or the organization or the company's needs and finding people whose strengths fill those gaps is inherently more valuable than filling those gaps and a bunch of other things as well. I absorb information at a pretty rapid rate, and I always say if I don't know it, it's just something that I have at least learned yet. However, I think that process of my brain of learning information very rapidly and pretty accurately also sometimes creates burnout. Right. And so again, I think everybody has superpowers. But even if you were Superman, if you were Superman 24 7, 365 and never took the cape off, you'd probably get tired and not want to be Superman anymore. I think just using people's powers for good and identifying what people are good at is really valuable and not constantly just trying to, trying to fill all gaps everywhere with 1%.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Oh, for sure. And I will add, you're absolutely right. Majority of people are willing to learn if they're given the chance. So if they, if you show them that you want to teach them or you have the confidence that they can do it, they're willing to do what they can to learn it. But they just need to be shown that you want them to learn or that they feel wanted. Right. So seeing heard, valued and understood, you're going to get people that are going to be successful no matter what, in my opinion. So what can leaders and organizations do to create workplaces where neurodiverse professionals feel supported, included, empowered to succeed, Know your team.
[00:19:30] Speaker D: And I say that, you know, not in like a interview evaluative process. Right. You know, we always have these kind of stock questions that we ask when we get to know people. And I think the interview process is designed for everyone to be like, on their best behavior, right? You want to show your best self. You don't want to look vulnerable or admit areas of weakness. And oftentimes when people get asked at an interview, like, what is your greatest weakness? Or like what is, like what is your greatest area of improvement as a professional? And people always have these kind of curated answers, right? To kind of look great in an interview and not to kind of highlight anything that they might not be good at, they won't use. You want everybody to think that you're, you're perfect for the job, right? But I think creating an environment in an interview process or even in, in the workplace to allow people to self identify need or to self identify things that they're not good at creates a level of comfort in that I don't have to be 100% good at all things at all times, because no one is. And that identifying weaknesses or identifying things that maybe we're not good at and looking for something, some supports that the companies that we work at may have creates that level of comfort in us being able to be our unique selves, but also know that we have the tools to do those things. Oftentimes as a neurodiverse professional one, I wasn't even diagnosed till I was in my 30s. I was just kind of like a quirky human for the majority of my life. But I've really spent a lot of my life finding ways to make myself successful and not really seeking those externally. But having worked for some really great companies in the last five or 10 years, I don't necessarily always have to find my own way. And I think sometimes when people really see you and they have tools available to you and they're not anything that's usually crazy. Like most research shows that like most adaptations or modifications in the workplace are like less than 150 bucks even if you have to purchase something. And then most of them are largely free. And so you practice those things in your day to day and you have those two tools available to all people. Most times even people who are not neurodiverse or have a disability find them to be helpful and wonderful to have. But sometimes those are actually vital for people like myself. And we've usually largely spent most of our, you know, adult life or you know, early adult lives finding our own tools and struggling because they either weren't available or people were not providing them what we needed them.
[00:21:48] Speaker C: I talk about this all the time, Heather. I have a connection of mine who started at a company and the company had 150 people in the company and she took it upon herself to go around when she first started and have as many coffee break time meetings with people that she didn't know within the company and got to know them and ask questions about them and really dug a little bit deep to get to know the people on a personal level as well. And I loved when I heard that because after she did that what it didn't mean several things. One, it made the transition easy for her. She got along with everybody from the get go because everyone was like, wow, this person wants to take some time to, to get to know me. And then the other thing that was great was that she could be sitting at her desk and someone could be like, I need to do this but I just don't know how to do this or where to turn. And she would be like, I met with Johnny the other day at a coffee meet greet and she, she and he told me that he, this is what he does. So maybe he'd be able to help you out. And if he doesn't, he's probably going to know some the person that is going to be able to do that. So it can be so beneficial to take the time and show interest in people.
[00:22:58] Speaker D: Yeah, I think it dives deep into the. It's not necessarily always what you know, it's who you know. Right. And if you surround yourself with people who are infinitely wonderful in ways that you are not or knowledgeable in ways that you are not, you don't have to be good at everything because you're drawing off of the experience and the intellect and the support from other people. And that's what makes a team Great. We all know what we need for one another. We lift each other up and we kind of collectively fill all of the voids within the projects or the companies that we work for. But you don't know that if you don't know your people or you don't know your colleagues. And so it kind of creates a little bit of a lonely island if you're not practicing that in the day to day of how you operate as a leader, for sure.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: So Heather, before we wrap up here, what is one key takeaway do you like our listeners to remember from this episode?
[00:23:44] Speaker D: I'd say just be yourself. And I know that sounds like really silly and kind of oversimplified, but I think that being your true authentic self, particularly in the workplace, is something that people really do not do. And people really separate who they are personally and professionally a lot. And I could see in some ways why they would do that. But when people don't really know you, they don't really know how to support you. And when people don't really know you, you really don't know where you fit in in kind of the constellation of people. And when you're unapologetic or transparent about who you are, you often find commonality with people that you didn't know you had that with. And also creates a spark of kind of shedding light on other people's to be able to do that. And that's really one of the reasons why I'm never tight lipped about who I am, what my diagnoses are, because again, those are arguably the least interesting things about me as a person. But when you are vocal about those things and who you are and the needs that you do and your flaws and what you're good at, then it allows other people the permission to kind of let their guard down and do the same thing. So I really enjoy very intimate, ultimately getting to know people. It's probably because I'm a chronic oversharer. But again, I just, I want people to know who I am again, take it or leave it. And you're only going to get that if you just be yourself.
[00:25:04] Speaker C: For sure. It taking the time to get to know someone is amazing. I have had some amazing conversations with people in the last couple of years and I've gotten to know so many different people. And you're absolutely right. Some people sometimes are to talk about what they're doing or what they're dealing with. And when you come out and you say something, then they're like, so I'm not the only person that deals with that on a daily basis, there's someone else like me. So it makes it a lot more manageable for people to know what others could be dealing with. For sure.
[00:25:38] Speaker D: Right. You never know what everybody's carrying around with them. And so sometimes when you take a moment to stop and pause and get to know someone or ask questions that are not, what do you need from me? What can I do for you? You know, you really get to connect with people in a way that strengthens both personal and professional relationships. And I've traveled all over the country over the last several years and I have met people that I never would have met in my life. And I'm very open about my life and my children and being an adoptive mother and having children with special needs and all the things about me that most people don't know about a person when you work with them professionally, it's helped me connect with other people who are parents that experience the same things that I do and created support networks and help identify different needs that could be supportive in the businesses that I work in and the needs of my children and other people's children. And really, we're all just out here trying to make the world like 1% better than what we found it in. Our ability to do that at scale or with any value is largely who you surround yourself with.
[00:26:37] Speaker C: My call to action today would be to, like, share and follow this episode. I wanted to take the time to thank you for coming on today, Heather. Heather, what I admire about you is your commitment to being impactful. Your energy, your kind demeanor, and just your absolute compassion for anybody and everybody that you meet. That's something that I saw the first time that you and I spoke. And I am super honored to have you on as a guest today. And it's an absolute pleasure to not only be a connection of yours, but I'm also going to go out there and call you a friend as well. So. So thank you for coming on today.
[00:27:13] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. And yeah, we'll see you soon, friend.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Absolutely. On behalf of myself and my guest, Heather, I would like to thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everyone, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: You have been listening to let's be Diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.
