Performance Management

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today I have an interesting topic. We're going to be talking about performance management. I am so lucky to have on as my guest today Andrea Adams. Andrea, welcome to the show. I am so happy and I appreciate you taking the time to come on and chat with us today. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Hi, Andrew, how are you? [00:00:40] Speaker B: I'm doing very good. It's so nice to have you on here. How's it going? [00:00:44] Speaker A: It's going great. [00:00:46] Speaker B: How are things with you? What's going on in your world? What's going on? What's exciting? Give us the tea to deets. Give us. Give us it all. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Well, I'm not sure when this episode is going to come out, however, on September 23rd, if it's seems unlikely that'll come out before that. But on September 23rd, I'm hosting a panel discussion on the future of DEI around. Well, when George Floyd was murdered, everybody got on the DEI bandwagon with a lot of enthusiasm and outrage, but many of us didn't really have the wisdom to practice it all that well. And, and I think we're seeing some of the backlash to some of our ineptitude now with some of the things like what Elon Musk said that DEI must die. Shrm taking the E out of DEI and just, I mean, you just have to Google it. There's very, I mean, it's so easy to find all of these kind of outrageous things that happen in society. So I don't think TEI is going away, but I do think we there probably ways we could get better at practicing it. And so that's what the panel is about and I'm really looking forward to it. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Well, I definitely will be checking it out, that's for sure. Whenever this podcast comes out, it might be a little bit past that time, but we can always go back or people can always go back. When they listen, they can always go back, find you and they can definitely listen to it because it's anything that's online or anything that's on the web, we can definitely go back and listen to at a later date. [00:02:23] Speaker A: So yeah, I will be putting it up on my podcast and on my YouTube channel, I think the YouTube channel, that part's automatic But I'll record it and put it on the podcast. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Wonderful. Well, I something definitely to check out and I will definitely be posting some stuff as well to have people to check out as well because I think it's, it's a diff. Interesting topic and it should be an interesting discussion. So definitely looking forward to that. Well, thanks for sharing that with me. I'm glad to hear that you're doing well and I'm glad that things are going well and I'm. You always have some interesting things going on. So I, I love that. Before we begin, Andrea, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today? [00:03:06] Speaker A: No, I'm not. I'm not. [00:03:13] Speaker B: You'll do fine. [00:03:14] Speaker A: You'll do crossing my fingers. All right, cool. [00:03:19] Speaker B: What is one thing you want to try for the first time in the year ahead? [00:03:28] Speaker A: Holy. Well, I know one thing. This is dumb answer, but it's top of mind right now. This panel discussion is the first time I'm going to hold a live discussion. So I've got to figure out the technology. I make sure all my guests have the technology. And so using all of that and professionally hosting a panel discussion, that is something I'm going to be doing. But you know, there's lots of things, if I'm not doing something new, I'm kind of bored actually. So there will be lots of things. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Well, that's awesome. And there's a lot of people like that and I admire that because there's people out there who are free to try something new. There's things that I want will try and there's things that I probably will say absolutely not. But when you, you know, when you're willing to try those things and, and you know, you're not scared and you just say, okay, I'm just, that's it, I'm gonna do it then, you know, I, kudos to those people for sure. So, and it's, I, I, I love you talk about your panel discussion because I think it's, it's great that you're trying that. And you know me being a podcast host as well, it's, there's so much that goes into it. So I can just imagine that there's so much that's going to go into preparing for that. So that is, that is super awesome and I admire you for doing that. That's awesome. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And the discussion, well, I know the guests, I've talked to all of them and it should be amazing. They're all Just so smart. And they've all been, all of them, I think, have been doing DEI for decades. So these aren't. They're. They're unlike some of the rest of us who sort of got on the band way and it's not really a bandwagon, but who really joined the effort in the late teens there. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Right, wonderful. Well, why don't we start off this amazing discussion with you telling us a little about you, your story and of. [00:05:30] Speaker A: Course, your why and of course your why. Do you ask everybody their why? [00:05:36] Speaker B: I do. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Okay. All right, so I'm a human resource professional and, and an HR consultant. I'll start with the HR consultancy part first. I consult the small and medium businesses primarily on their strategy, their HR strategy and projects. And so when I say strategy, I, you know, strategy looks different for every stage of company and for small and medium, mostly small companies, they're looking at just adding basic hr, doing the basic HR things. But they are really, they've got a really tight budget and they're trying to figure out when to do them, what are the most important things to do. And some of them are really just, you know, they never had that responsibility and they don't. And they question the value of it. And so. And then they have a bad experience. They have some employee to something colossally dumb or something, and so then they're learning the hard way. But don't we all just, you know, generally learn the hard way? So I'll help them with their strategy and help them figure out when's the right time to put HR into place and what part of HR they need to put into place and then projects. I love project management, so I take on a lot of different projects that other people are afraid to do or maybe internally you just don't have time to do them. And, and I really enjoy them. So that's really my consultancy. Something I've been delving into lately is AI and I've created this really fascinating. I'm excited about it. Yeah, AI, employee helper. And. Oh, it's. I think it has a chance to alleviate a lot of HR toil, all those things that HR people really don't like doing. So not all of them, but some of them. And then, okay, so that's the consultancy. Besides that, I'm also, as you know, and I'm sure the audience has guessed by Now, I'm an HR YouTuber and podcaster as well, and I have an HR YouTube channel. And the HR YouTube part is my main focus, that I take the audio from that And I create a podcast from it as well. And I believe the YouTube channel is the leading general state char YouTube channel in Canada. As far as I know, I could be wrong. And I really love the YouTube channel, probably for the same reasons you love your podcast, because you get to talk to such smart people. And I love the discovery of ideas because there are so many ideas out there that can help us do our work better, can help us live our lives better, more peacefully, happily, and you just have to go looking for it. And so I love that part. And I get really excited about those little snippets of wisdom that come out in almost every single episode. And then the last part of that was my why. And I think in a personal sense, my why is my daughter and my family. And I mean, I have. We all have say we have awesome kids, but I have an awesome kid. And she's. She's funny and she's vibrant, and I love that. And then in work, my why is collaborating to make organizations better. And often by making organizations better, I make the world better. And the tool I use to do this is hr. For me, HR is not the end. HR is just the means. And it means I happen to be good at. [00:09:19] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's why so much stuff that I. That I love that you said there. So first off, I love the fact that you're. Why you said is your. Your family and your daughter. And, you know, family is so important. And I think we all realize that specifically after. I think we all knew it. But I think after the pandemic, talking to a lot of people, I think people kind of had a chance to think about things during that time, and they realized what's important and. And what really matters to them. And family was number, you know, became. It probably was number one, but it actually even became even more number one than anything else. So I love the. I love that. And we all talk about our kids and stuff like that, too. So many people talk about their kids and their daughters and say that they're. They're awesome. And I love that you said that, you know, you. That you know what you love about her. So that is. That is super important. And when you're talking about that stuff, specifically your job and your daughter, what really caught my attention was your passion, Andrea. So you have a sincere and vibrant passion for what you do. And there's not a lot of people who have that passion. A lot of people just kind of go with the. With the flow, and they go with the, you know, they just kind of go with the everyday thing. And, you know. You know, I'm, oh, I got to do this, I got to do that, and I got to do this. But there's. There's no, like, infinite. And you just have that. And I've noticed that from the first day that I met you that you just have that in you, and you just have. You're. It's vibrant for you, and. And it comes out in everything. It comes out in everything that you do. So that's. That's what caught my attention. [00:11:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Can I just, you know, I think, just commenting on that passion, because I was just editing an episode and we talked about passion in that episode, and I think it's relevant that not everybody has the privilege of approaching their jobs with their passion and making their passion to work. Right. Their work. And they just. But they. They're dedicated and they're doing their thing, and. And that's okay. That's okay. And for those of us that do have the privilege of approaching our jobs with passion, remember that sometimes that passion comes and goes. Sometimes, you know, it just feels like a grind. But ultimately, you. You will come. You go through your dip, and then you come back to the passion and you find that again sometimes feels a bit scary when it seems to disappear or when it's gone for a while. I just. It's hard to know whether or not to quit or whether or not to keep. Keep at it, but I guess keep at it until something else presents itself. [00:12:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I want to piggyback what you said. Absolutely. There's going to be good days and there's going to be bad. There's gonna be days that you're gonna come out of it and. And say, oh, my God, what a great day. And then there's some days where you're just gonna be like, oh, my God. I think I, you know, I can't. I'm so happy that this day is over. Let's, you know, let's get ready for tomorrow, and, you know, tomorrow's gonna be better. But, you know, when you do have passion, I believe that it. That gets you to tomorrow. When you struggle with that passion, then you struggle to get to the tomorrow. And like I said, you definitely have that passion, Andrea. And it's. It's something that I. That I admire. So I love that. Thank you for sharing your story in that. Let's get into the meat and bones of this. We're talking about performance management today. What is performance management and why is it so important? [00:13:08] Speaker A: I think that question about what is performance Management is actually so important because everybody, when they talk about performance management, I mean, been doing this for a long time now, HR for a long time. And I'm not sure we all know what we're talking about, right? Performance management in the strictest sense is the performance in the strictest sense is the performance appraisal cycle actually. So at the beginning of the year you set your goals and then you have your midterm review, maybe you have two mid year reviews and at the end you have your final review and then you start the whole process all over again. That in the strictest sense is performance management. But what you also hear, and what I hear quite a bit consulting is, you know, I get introduced to a client and they'll say we're performance managing this person. And what they mean by that is they're either they've either got an employee on a PIP or they've got an employee in some phase of the disciplinary cycle. And I think, I mean I could talk about either one of them, but I think what we're going to talk about is more the disciplinary PIP side of things. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:21] Speaker A: And performance management in sort of that disciplinary sense, you're performance managing somebody. It's tough stuff. It isn't easy to do. It isn't, it's hard to do, it's hard to do well. But it is mandatory in many, for many organizations it's mandatory. You have to do it. If you have a union, almost certainly you have to be doing the disciplinary form of performance management because you've got a collective agreement and you can't just fire somebody and pay them a lot of money. You would have to negotiate that with the union. And the union is going to want you to follow the disciplinary process. So it's required in any organization with a, with a union. But I think for organizations that don't have unions, it's also, it's also. Well, it's quite important. I have, we'll talk about trends later, but I've seen a trend towards just letting people go and severing them and giving them money to go. But there's a missed opportunity there. The purpose of performance management in a disciplinary sense is to give the employee clear understanding of the expectations of the job, clear understanding of what happens and less about the consequences, but a clear understanding about what, you know, the expectations of doing the job so that they have a chance to succeed at the job. If someone is unclear about what their expect, what the expectations are, well, they're not going to deliver on it. And so the other you know, I see discipline being used in unionized organizations a lot. I also see discipline being used when an organization wants to keep somebody. This is a person that they have valued in the past. This is a person with a ton of organizational knowledge. But you know, they've tried the subtle approach and they're just not getting through. And so then they go to discipline to make it crystal clear to the individual what the expectations are and give them an opportunity to improve. It really is about that opportunity improve. I like the rest of probably the world have questions about whether or not there's a better way. But in many circumstances you have to do it that way anyway. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Mm. So, so when you're talking about you, I love when you said clear expectations because I, I feel like there's that communication factor and do you find that people in performance like that are conducting or perform, you know, using performance management? Are they there? Are they lacking communication skills? [00:17:18] Speaker A: Are you talking about the people who are the subject of performance management or the people are like the supervisor who's delivering it? [00:17:24] Speaker B: I would say both because I think there's communications missing on both sides. Right. Because you know, you're, you know, either side is not communicating what is not understand what they're not understanding. And I've, you know, for example, an employee I know, you know, or I've been in situations where the employee is, you know, they've done a performance management the organization and then the, the employee is like, okay, well you know, they're not knowing or not understanding how to communicate what's their, what they're having difficulty with or what they're needing in order to, you know, to do the job. And on the other side it's the, the management who is having a lack of communication to explain to the employee what exactly they need. You're talking about clear expectations. They're ever, they're lacking the ability to communicate the clear expectations. And then it comes back and they're, you know, there's like a misunderstanding and they'll say, oh well that's, this is what you told me and your organization be like, no, this is not what I told you. I told you this. So that's what I mean. The communication factor is. Do you think it's missing? [00:18:44] Speaker A: I do think that communication is missing and I think it's missing probably at the very, very earliest stages when they're. The first inkling of a problem is emerging and, but the supervisor reluctant to say, to provide that individual with pointed feedback, to enter into a, a two way conversation holds back and doesn't say anything and the behavior gets worse. And so I think it's really important that leaders, as soon as they are seeing an issue, that they sit down and have some sort of heart to heart conversation with the employee about why it's happening. And, and I think it's, especially at the early stages, later it gets hard. But especially at the early stages when you're not into the disciplinary cyc, right. You just notice that this employee is not performing to, up to their best to have a conversation with them about why that's happening. Like I, you know, it can be medical reasons, it can be they just don't know how to do the job, that they didn't get a, they got a lousy onboarding and they, they didn't realize that that was part of their responsibilities or they learn what their responsibilities were from, you know, someone they probably shouldn't have been learning those things from. And, and, and having that early conversation where it's not strained, you are, people aren't leaping to make judgments of the other person where there's, you know, it's ease, the communication is relatively easy and open is when you're going to discover a lot, you know, and like as medical issues getting in the way of performance. I know that happened to me and my supervisor came to me and said like what's going on here? And I just, I didn't even really realize that it was noticeable. And then I was like, holy moly, what is going on here? And so off I went to the doctor and that was a real opportunity for me. Like I'm grateful for, to her for pointing that out because it helped me, you know, get on top of it much sooner than I might have otherwise. Yeah. And so that's the opportunity of a leader and, and you know, and to provide the right level of coaching. I would say communication is harder. Like communication isn't going to do a whole lot of good if, and it happens if the employee is just, you know, frankly unethical, like their communication is not going to help if they're stealing. Right. Communication's not, you know what, and even, even then sometimes like employees will, you know, if you've treated them badly in the past, they're going to look for any way to stick it to you. And so even stealing could be a means of trying to stick it to the employer. But, and so had you had the conversation earlier, had you been an open supervisor earlier, maybe they would not be trying to stick it to you. However, there is an onus, a strong onus on employees you can't steal, you can't lie. And in those circumstances, if you do do those things, you ought to expect that there will be consequences if you're caught. [00:22:36] Speaker B: Right? [00:22:37] Speaker A: So why I'm like, did I even answer the question there? You sure did. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah. You gave us, you gave, you gave a great explanation of that, and I love that. So we might have gone into this a little bit, but I wanted to dig a little bit deeper. What do you think the key ingredient is of performance management? [00:23:02] Speaker A: Well, I talked about clarity. So definitely clarity. So clarity of expectations, feedback. So in early feedback, and when I say clarity, like the earlier and sooner you can set these, the better. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Right? [00:23:17] Speaker A: So, and so feedback, you know, you see somebody that's not doing the job the way you want it done, provide them with that feedback as soon as you can. Don't wait for it to get so egregious that you're forced to take disciplinary action if you have that opportunity. I think another key element of performance management is fairness. You can't be disciplining your least favorite employee while you let the other employee get away with those same behaviors or similar behaviors. That isn't going to go over well and other people are watching. So you do have to try and be fair, recognizing that sometimes fairness is specific to a situation that, that, you know, you've got to, you've got to take into account. You know, when you do an investigation, you'll ask all the questions of what happened, but you also ask about mitigating circumstances. So you have to take into account the mitigating circumstances. And, you know, people watching might not know about those mitigating circumstances, and they're not really entitled to, but it will look unfair to them. But you should be striving for fairness. [00:24:35] Speaker B: I love the clarity and I love the feedback. And that's one thing I notice in organizations. A lot of managers or leaders, they, they don't give the feedback like you said, when it's necessary or right, right from the get go. And then you, like you said it, it festers. And then next thing you know, then you have a bigger problem and then you're like, okay, well, maybe I should have went back, you know, fixed it back then, but it's too late at that point. So nip it in the bud right from the get go, give them constructive feedback and just be honest with them. And I think you're going to definitely see a difference of trust and respect coming from the employee because you're, you're being honest. And we're not talking about like coming at them hard and bashing them and yelling and screaming. We're talking about having a honest and vulnerable conversation with them, going over what's going on, finding out what's happening and then what can we do to have a. Find a solution to this or to help you and, and, and being present in that solution, not just saying we're going to find it and then nothing happens for like two, three weeks. Like be present and then, and be continuous on it until everything is, is fixed. [00:26:02] Speaker A: But sometimes if the employee is not getting it. Yeah. Then you do have disciplinary processes. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Yep. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Which are still to salve. Which are still meant to salvage the relationship, even if they don't feel like it. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:26:20] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:26:21] Speaker B: For sure. So this is something that, in discussions that I've had with people and specifically with employees, and I want to get your opinion on this. Why do you think employees do not. They don't like performance management? [00:26:40] Speaker A: I mean, it's pretty. I. That feels like. That's pretty obvious. It feels demeaning. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:46] Speaker A: I mean, how I just, it reminds me of, you know, my mom and dad sitting me down in front of the fireplace and, you know, waving their finger at me and I didn't have a chance to say a word in my own defense. And it just, it feels like you're a child again. It feels demeaning. I mean, those are easy and there's. And they're serious consequences, which is scary. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Like the serious consequences that you are required to put in a performance management letter feels scary. And so there's really many, many, many reasons to dislike it. You know, maybe you're trying to be sneaky and now you can't get away with it anymore and that. And like, I mean, you shouldn't be trying to be sneaky, but someone called you on it. That's uncomfortable. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:41] Speaker A: You know, and who likes to be called out on it's like being, you know, pulled over by the police for speeding. Like, who enjoys that experience? No. No one. But were you speeding? Yes. So. So, yeah, I mean, as much as possible, you know, learn something from it, reflect on it and, and try and adjust accordingly. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:10] Speaker A: You know, and with it, you know, and with a sense of self respect. Right, right. Yeah. Own up to it. [00:28:16] Speaker B: So the reason why I asked that, and it was interesting me because, you know, you're talking from both sides and you know, I've had people that I've worked with who are employees who feel like when they're going through a performance management or they're dealing with the manager or the leader on something because something happened. They, you know, sometimes they feel like, oh, they're, you know, they're just coming at me because of something else or something that happened and they just, you know, or you talked about it earlier, that it's, you know, they're not my favorite. So, so, and so is their favorite. So they're, they're coming at. Because they just don't like me and they're just trying to find a way to, to get rid of me. Is kind of, is kind of why I asked that. And, and because it's something that I hear a lot. [00:29:08] Speaker A: It is. [00:29:09] Speaker B: I wanted to get your opinion. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's something I hear a lot too. And. Well, unless you're in a unionized environment, I would think in a lot of those cases it's possible that they actually want you, they want to keep you because if they didn't want you. Depending in maybe large organizations, it's not true that, you know, in large organizations there's so much process that they will force a lower level supervisor to go through the steps of discipline before letting that supervisor release the employee. I do think it's possible, it is possible that they are out to get the individual. You know, I'd be totally lying if I didn't say that. I haven't seen it. But I've also seen far more of the alternative where they're trying, you know, when they do go through discipline, they're trying to save the individual or it's either discipline or a PIP performance improvement program. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:22] Speaker A: So maybe you can take heart from the fact that, you know, they're, you're being exposed to that. But, but sometimes, yeah, they may not be wrong. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And that sucks. [00:30:36] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah. What do you think the future is for performance management or what does it look like in 2025? [00:30:47] Speaker A: I think for unionized organizations it's much the same. You'd have to change the collective agreement. And that is a very fundamental piece of most collective agreements, the disciplinary process. So in those organizations it would be, you know, I might be struck by a meteor before that happens. But in non unionized organizations, I think we're going to see less and less performance management. There is a lot of legal risk that comes along with performance management. Let's say you go through the steps, you manage to terminate an employee for cause because this employee is legitimately misbehaving at work, not following instructions, whatever, and, but then they can sue you and there's a lot of expense in Being sued because you have to hire a lawyer. And so I'm seeing employers leaning more and more towards eliminating that risk. Terminated without cause, provide severance, you know, generous severance, and then they don't have to deal with any of those legal risks and they can just move on and be done with it. Supervisors, many supervisors I support find it so stressful to walk an employee through the disciplinary processes. And so. Yeah, and so they don't want to do it either. And they really also prefer to just let the in person go and just give them money. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I can definitely see the, the nervousness for sure. And, you know, not knowing. And it's kind of like a catch 22, right? It's almost like a, you know, what do we do here? Or how do we handle this? And then, you know, but I mean, if it's. It is a situation, you're right. If it's a situation where the person needs to be let go, then, you know, they got a, you know, if it's a performance thing and if they're just not doing. I mean, I've. I remember working somewhere, I'm gonna age myself here probably 25 years ago, and they just. And some. This person was. That was sitting beside me and they were like, oh, like three months in, they just, they just weren't doing the tasks and. And that. But, you know, was there, you know, but I kind of wonder, like, was the true. But were they. There was not really any training in that organization back then. So they, you know, so I wonder what was, you know, what was the training? Like, what kind of training did they actually get? And did they actually get the proper information to understand everything that was needed? So that's kind of something that I kind of look at. And then, I don't know, about 30 years ago, there was a company that I worked for that they had somebody, a manager that was there, and within six months, there was three people let go in that same department. So should we look at, okay, well, what's going on there? Like, what's happening? Is it the employee or is it. Is there something more on the outside that's happening that's causing this? [00:34:19] Speaker A: So, you know, can often be any of those. I do see. And this tends to happen more senior organ in, like at senior levels of an organization, you get a new manager come in, and they're brought in to make change, and you need leadership on board with the change. And when they won't get on board, when they're resisting actively getting in the way. I do see that at Times like that where consideration is made to severing, that employee just won't get on board with the change that needs to be made. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Right, Right. What is one takeaway that you want our audience to get from this episode? [00:35:11] Speaker A: If you have a performance problem with one of your staff or you are in HR or something like that and someone's coming to you and saying, I got this like irritating employee, tell them to, you know, to get on it. Encourage them to get to have that conversation early so you can give that person a chance to really succeed. Because severing employees, expensive, stressful, hard on morale, hard on, you know, everyone involved, hard on the individual. So don't wait. You're doing, you're doing no one any favors when you wait too long to provide an individual with feedback. I think the other thing too is again and again at that early stage is just be curious. Like if you see that someone's been a decent, a good contributor for a long time and all of a sudden their behavior changes, ask why. Don't be afraid to ask them why. Or if you have a new hire and they're just not, they just don't seem to be getting it, ask why. What can you put into place so that person would succeed? I mean, you've made, you know, as soon as you get somebody in through the doors, you've made an enormous investment in them. [00:36:37] Speaker B: Right? Right. [00:36:37] Speaker A: It's going to be enormously costful to send them out the door and replace them. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:42] Speaker A: So, you know, how can you transform that investment you've made into one that's ho hum into one that is successful and it succeeds? Just be curious. You know, I've seen lots of creative things done. You know, someone is having a health challenge or a childcare challenge where the employer works with the employee and sometimes those things can go on for a while because those sorts of problems often aren't solved quickly. They work with the employee and solve them and then you have a really dedicated employee. [00:37:23] Speaker B: I love everything that you said there. You know, I, I love the fact that you're talking about not, not waiting. If I was going to talk to our guest or listeners today, I would say if I'm have a call to action today, it is that, you know, not to wait to talk to your employees. I've worked in jobs, you know, 25 years ago where I was put into a situation where the first day you said, you know, we're going to throw you into the fire and we're going to see if you can sink or swim and you Know they're not, you know, you're not giving the employee enough to succeed. So I love what you're saying. Don't wait. Give the feedback. And I would say to managers, leaders, give yourself and give that person an opportunity to succeed. Do everything that you can to make sure that person succeeds and make sure that they have all the things and all the processes that they need in order to succeed. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror when you go home as a manager leader to say, hey, I've done everything that I can. It didn't work out for that person, but I did everything that I could in order to make sure that things would. Everything would work out for them. So if you can do that, then, you know, all power to you and all kudos to you. But if you didn't, then it's something that you. I think we should probably look at and understand a little bit better for the next. For the next opportunity. So that would be my call to action, is to worry, you know, make sure that we're giving feedback and give some great communication and, you know, and make sure that the employees have whatever that they need. Any final thoughts today? [00:39:21] Speaker A: Ultimately, the performance management process, disciplinary process about providing feedback and setting clear expectations, and a book I love about doing that very thing is Radical Candor by Kim Scott. I had to turn around and make sure I got the name and the author right. I mean, Radical Candor, that's pretty easy to remember. She writes an excellent book on providing feedback and on how to convince yourself. You know, if you're struggling, you're someone who struggles with giving feedback. She clearly reminds you in a. In a kind way that you're not doing that person any favors. That saying that feedback is kind probably is true. Yeah. In most cases, he can be an too, but whoa. [00:40:21] Speaker B: For sure, for sure. Listen, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on here, Andrea. This has been an amazing conversation. It's the exact conversation that I envisioned when I first approached you and we first started talking, and it's been amazing. You gave such great information, feedback, and you are. You're probably gonna laugh to yourself, but you are a wealth of knowledge. And I'm sure that people took so much information from this conversation today. And I know myself, I can speak for myself that I took a lot. And I know you talked earlier about taking little snippets of everything that you do. I took even more. I took more than one snip I took quite a few snippets from it. And thank you for being vulnerable and available and inspiring to for this conversation today. I really appreciate it. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Well, thank you. Much appreciated. Thanks for having me on and being so patient with me. [00:41:26] Speaker B: You're very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest Andrea, I'd like to thank you all for listening today and until next time, be safe and remember that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything. [00:41:37] Speaker A: You have been listening to. Let's Be Diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.