Candidate Screenings

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's be diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and never be forgotten. Today our topic is candidate screenings. It's interesting to me something that's come up. It's a conversation that I've been having on this topic on various conversations either online or over the phone. So I thought it would be something that I'd be interested going into. And my guest today to help me get through this or navigate through this is Ali Kano. Welcome to the show, Ali. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today. [00:00:51] Speaker A: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. [00:00:53] Speaker B: You're very, very welcome. It is super awesome to have you. As I was before we started taping today. We've been kind of going back and forth on this trying to find a time and this is super, super cool. Those of you who are listening, you won't be can't see it. But I have a smile on my face because I am super excited to have Ali on and and chat with her today. How are things with you? What's going on? What's new in your world? Give us the tea to deets. Give us it all. [00:01:24] Speaker A: Okay, so lots is new. I would say that this summer has been very fruitful. I have been able to come into a community manager role at Toast Community, which is women in tech. And I serve as the Edmonton community manager. We have a summit coming up in Calgary in actually a week, two weeks. Oh my gosh, it's so quick. And part of that, I'm also getting back into the relaunch of our business. So we used to be be called one thing, we're now called another thing. And that's actually getting some marketing out. And it's kind of nice to see people recognizing us for what we're doing now. And then of course, you know, tis fall and it is back to school time for all the kiddos. So getting routine back in my household has been a blessing for everything. But I'm really just super excited about what the next few months are going to hold. [00:02:20] Speaker B: That's awesome. You know, I. It's funny that you talk about September because I find that some I've been feeling as I've been getting older, September is kind of a month that is kind of almost like new year's for me because it's Kind of like you're getting right back into, you've gone through like spring and summer and things were kind of a little bit off kilter as far as schedule goes. But it's kind of like, okay, new year refresh, get started. And for me it's been like, okay, it's the new, you know, thinking new year, but planning for the new year and thought processes for the new year. So it, it's, it's, it wasn't like that when I was younger, but it's as I'm getting older, like I said, it's starting to be more and more like that. So. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. I find that everybody gets back to work in September, usually. Yeah, usually. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Usually. Exactly. Exactly. Well, listen, I'm so anxious to get into this conversation, but before we do, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to get things going. Are you ready for yours today, Ali? [00:03:30] Speaker A: Yes, let's do it. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Okay. My question is, you have the power of flight or visibility. Which one do you choose and why? [00:03:42] Speaker A: Visibility, like able to see anything, right? Ooh. Or flight. I would choose visibility because I would like to be aware of everything rather than be able to go anywhere. I kind of weirded out by. Flight is in all vectors. You know, you can go up, down, sideways, pitch, yaw, all that weird stuff. Whereas visibility, being able to see all of the different things. [00:04:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:11] Speaker A: And having that awareness, that would be so cool. [00:04:13] Speaker B: It would be cool. It would be, it would be, it would be mind blowing. I think it would be awesome. We'd have a different, I think we'd have a different way of thinking for sure if, if that was the case. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah, indeed. Yes, for sure. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Well, listen, I appreciate your, your awesome answer. You were quick. So thanks for having fun with me. I really do appreciate that. Why don't we start get things going with you telling us a little about you, yourself and your. Why? [00:04:43] Speaker A: Perfect. So putting some thought into this one. I usually start out with a little cadence about who I am, but I'm going to switch it around a little. I am a three time founder, so I have started three different companies under the guise of being an entrepreneur and pretending that I know what I'm doing. I mostly identify as a recovering recruiter, which I think is a moniker that is taking a hold with a few people. I've seen that a few other folks on LinkedIn, having it there. As a recovering recruiter, I'm looking at the, I want to say damages that I've done in my life as a high volume recruiter for very large companies and Helping other folks learn how to hire with their smaller companies as well. So I've done this from putting the first person into an organization all the way up to working with companies that are in the tens of thousands internationally and helping them with their recruitment process. So looking at the scope and the depth of the breadth of what I've done over the past two decades and the better part of a third, I've been dealing with all things talent management and hiring and firing and all those wonderful things, but found my way and my love into recruitment. But my biggest why and the reason why I get out of bed every day is I absolutely hate the way that we do recruitment. I hate that we use resumes as a data source. I hate that you need to have statements of privilege on your resume to be recognized as somebody that could be a good fit for a company. And I hate that we use poor measures or metrics of success in order to determine high potential. And that's really why I identify as that recovering recruiter, because I know that there is a better way to do things and I'm working on building it out myself. So my purpose is to get rid of resumes all together from this reading process. [00:06:44] Speaker B: So it's interesting that you're saying that to me because I, I, I, I see where you're going on this. I, I see how I've been having lots of conversations of PE from, with people who are looking for new employment and they're going through the process of it and it's, it's a full time job. Like, it's really like work to, to look for new employment. Especially if you're not working, you're spending your days, look, you know, preparing yourself for, you know, to finding your next role. And there's a lot of people out there who are just kind of going, and they're just simply just going online, going on the different job sites and you're just applying and you're just applying. Applying. Flying. Flying. Flying. I talked to somebody a few weeks back and they had told me that they, that day, they had said, I said, how's your day going? And they said, oh, I was so busy. I said I must have applied to about like 45 positions today. And I was like, holy. And then I just, and then I just kind of said to them, I'm like, well, how, you know, you know, have you just been a, you know, may I ask, like, have you just been applying or like what, what, you know, has there been other stuff that you've been kind of doing on the side and they were kind of like unaware of other stuff that you could be doing on the side. And I was. So I've been kind of guiding them and kind of helping them because there are so many things that you can do to find work. And what I love about when he said resume, people are sending out resumes and I feel like people, companies are looking at these resumes and you know, sometimes it doesn't work out. But when you, when you see somebody or they come in, you know, when you say, okay, let's bring them in for an interview, you know, I may not have everything we need, but you know, I just have a feeling about this person. And they bring them in and sometimes, and a lot of times they're really surprised at the person that comes in, regardless of what they have on their resume. They just seem like they fit. So for me, this I think, or I'm finding, and we're not talking about high level positions, but you know, like director and stuff like that. But I'm finding that companies are looking a lot at the soft skills. [00:09:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Like, I talked to a, an HR manager about a month ago and she told me, she said if there was two people, one had the experience, but they were, I didn't think there were a fit because of their, or they didn't have the soft skills that I was looking for and the other person didn't have a lot of the, the hard skills that we had that we're looking for, but they had all the soft skills. I will take the person, the second person, because I can, I feel I can, I can train them to do the job, but train them to be, to have values and to be, you know, to get along with people. Like the certain characteristics that I'm looking for from my team, they, you know, I can't teach that either. You have, you know, in some cases you have it and you don't. So it's interesting to me that you say that and I love, I love that thought process. [00:10:12] Speaker A: When you look at the whole hiring process, what they're trying to determine, you know, as a hiring manager or a recruiter, you're trying to figure out if somebody has the knowledge, the skills, the, and the abilities. But oftentimes we forget about the attitudes and what that HR manager was saying is right on the nose. I've been hearing it too, in a lot of different areas. Let me, let me take the person with potential or that has the soft skills, is coachable, is malleable, is eager, wants to learn, wants to grow, and is just A little bit more energetic than the person that, you know, will sit back a little bit. But they have all the skills and abilities. They just don't show the soft side of it. And you have to remember like, whatever role you're going into or whatever job is out there always has some piece of interaction with other people. So there needs to be that interpersonality piece as well, rather than just do you have the knowledge and the skills. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:11:11] Speaker A: So. [00:11:12] Speaker B: So for me, it's kind of like, it's a little bit like parenting. So when you're, when you're a parent, you have a child, you are leading them and you're molding them and teaching them how to be the, the individual that you'd like them to be as they grow up. So I'd say it's the same thing when you bringing somebody into an organization and you're training them and they might not have everything that you need. You're, you have that opportunity to mold them into the employee that you want or you want them to be. And sometimes a lot of times you might see them developing into, you know, you might see them in a different light or, you know, maybe, you know, down the road you can do this and down road you can do that. So it is a great way to do that. Again, it doesn't, I know it doesn't work all the time. Sometimes it doesn't work and it is what it is. But I mean, I mean I would take, I would take somebody who, like if, if a mother came to me with three kids who hasn't been working for two years, but taking home, taking care of her kids, and she's coming to work with me and she has all the soft skills I'd hire in our heartbeat because I know the work ethic is there. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Parenting is a 24 hour, especially being a mom. It's a 24 hour job. And I know you have the work. She has a work ethic. So I'm gonna take her like in a heartbeat. No, no questions asked. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. [00:12:40] Speaker B: So what is the purpose of a, of candidate screenings and why are they so important? [00:12:48] Speaker A: So candidate screenings are getting to know the no. And when I say no, like know the no, it's K N O W the N O. And it's that little extra piece of understanding after the first blush of the candidate. So are you looking at a resume? Great, good for you. If that's what you do. Are you gathering data from your application pool? Are you getting them to send in, you know, a quick little blurb on your careers page, whatever it might be, are they in your applicant tracking system? You get the information from that candidate and you go, there's something here that's worth exploring a little bit more. And it's the next step before you have that sit down, face to face conversation where it could be a more in depth interview. But the screening is essentially trying to figure out whether or not you want a date. Is this person going to have the same kind of things? Do they have non negotiables that match my non negotiables? Do they have the bonafide occupational requirements that we need for this job or did they just try to sneak that in there so that we could actually determine that they would be a good fit? So essentially when it comes down to as a recruiter, what I would look for is I'd have a yes, no and a maybe pile. And I would go through the yeses and maybes and determine should I have this additional conversation with the person. So typically it's either a telephone or an email or a quick call. It's the random recruiter pinging you at 5:30 in the evening kind of thing. And it's always done just to try and get some additional information. It's not meant to be a lengthy process. It's just trying to determine if the checkboxes are clicked or if they're not clicked. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:29] Speaker A: And if they aren't clicked, is it okay for you still to consider this person moving forward? And so that's kind of like the formal reason why we do candidate screening. But there's also an informal reason. And the informal reason is about those soft skills. It is about the attitude, it's about the, you know, it's the attentiveness. Is somebody paying attention to what we're asking them to do. It's the responsiveness. Are they responding? Are they determining that these individuals want to work for this company or for this role? And gauging that kind of not necessarily a barrier to entry, but there's more steps involved than just submitting a resume, which are requirements for certain government things. So if you're submitting a resume and you're engaged with me as a recruiter or me as a hiring manager, I know that you're interested. And now I want to have a deeper conversation with you about this because you're just as excited as I am. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:15:24] Speaker A: But I think a lot of people forget about that informal side of the candidate screening. Pay attention to what they're saying. Pay attention to, you know, is it 150 word cover letter, which I've seen. Is it not or is it, you know, this is. These are the steps to the process. Please follow these steps to the process. And if anything comes through and they don't go all the way through, well, you didn't follow the three steps that we asked you to follow. [00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:51] Speaker A: So there's that kind of piece. The reason why it's so important is that it is a way for everyone to bow out gracefully during the process at the very front of it. So does the salary not match the requirements? Thank you very much for your time. It's, I'm not interested. Is it, you know, let's talk about work life balance. Is it something that's fully remote? Do you have to be in the office five days a week? Are the hours of work conducive to what you're looking for? All of these things might not actually be stated inside of the job posting or the job description. You get to know that, no, very quickly during this process. And then if you decide that you don't want to do it as a candidate, no harm, no foul, as an employer, we're not going to take this person down this process because it's not going to be a good fit if they can't meet the bare minimums. Right. So that's, that's the reason for importantness. The other really, really cool thing about this is if it is done correctly, this can be a legally defensible process. [00:16:53] Speaker B: Okay. [00:16:56] Speaker A: So if you hire somebody on the premise that, let's say I said I had an mba, which I don't, and you're saying that, okay, I've got that checkbox for mba, she goes all the way through and then somebody finds out that I don't have an mba, I have lied through a process, I can be terminated with, with cause. So that's the other thing too. Or in the case of diversity, we have metrics to show exactly who we went forward with and these were the reasons why we went forward with them and these are the reasons why we did not move forward with these. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Right, right. I love when you talk about bonafide occupational requirements because I feel like there's so many people that are, that are transitioning from one career to the next and they, they feel like they don't have the requirements. So I've, you know, been having so many conversations with people lately who like, oh, I'd like to do this job, or you know, I think I can only do this because I'm only qualified for it and I Keep telling them, saying, listen, you can take certain things from what you've done, and you're going to be able to transition them to your neck, to whatever you'd like to, Whatever you'd like to do, or whatever career you'd like to do. You're not gonna have everything, but you're gonna have certain things that are going to help you transition to that career, and it might even help you be good at that career, because they may. It may be stuff that other people don't have. So I love what, like I said, I love when you said bonfire occupational requirements, because people are just not thinking that way. They're not thinking. They're not thinking outside the box. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. And there's, there's going to be skill sets and competency sets that come through no matter which role you have. Like, you will always have the ability to have critical thinking in a role where you have to make quick decisions. As a manager in any occupation, you have had to make decisions on behalf of your team and on behalf of your department or whatever. So there's, there's leadership factors in there. There's analytical ability, there's, you know, communication style, problem solving style. Do you work collaboratively with people or do you solve the problem on your own? How do you solve that problem on your own? Again, these are kind of those abilities and skills that you might not have learned in the industry that you want to be in, but you definitely have a suitcase full of skills that you've gotten from anything else. And this, you know, for those of your listeners that are new into the workforce or coming back into the workforce, it's like riding a bike. If you've done it before, like if you let a youth camp or, you know, you babysat and, you know, first aid, like, those things come through into the workforce. You just don't realize that it's a transitional skill, as it were. And the greatest thing about skill sets, or maybe the weirdest thing about skill sets, is that the core skills that you have, one in five of them will disappear in five years. In eight years, they'll all change. [00:20:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:13] Speaker A: So wherever you do your work, your skills will adapt, your competencies will become stronger. It just, it takes what your baseline knowledge is and then applies it into the future. So always think about potential of people because it's going to change no matter what. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So what are the advantages of candidate screenings? [00:20:33] Speaker A: Oh, advantages would be. It's a much faster process. So even though it adds in the additional step from, you know, taking a resume and going to an interview, you can decide whether or not again you want to date that person at the very front of it. You can say yes or no and then have a very clean and, you know, secure group of individuals that you want to have a conversation with that are higher suited for what you're looking for. They meet the minimum requirements, they're high potential individuals, they do most of the checkboxes. And I say most of it because I think it's important for people to know that it is a wish list. Those requirements thing is a wish list. And then they have the nice to haves on there. What you really want to look for is the responsibilities when you're applying. And do those responsibilities match what you've been able to do in the past? And could you say to them eagerly, yes, I've done this or I can do this. But the advantages of figuring out through the screening process of whether or not somebody matches all of the how to do the work, not just what the work is. So again, coming back to the where's the work done? How many hours are you doing? What's the pay? What's the compensation like, who are they going to be working with too? Another key thing about that screening is that you can determine if the person's not only going to fit for the role, but if they're also going to fit for the team or the department and then the organization as a whole. Because yes, you want complementary skill sets and you want people that would challenge what the regular group is, but you don't want to put, as I like to call it, bacteria in the fish tank. You want abrasiveness or like friction. You don't want abrasiveness. So you want to be able to have people challenge each other, but not to the point where it's just toxic. And again, I talked about, you know, it's legally defensible if it's done correctly. So you can determine through measurements, metrics, who is the appropriate person based on this information. [00:22:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:35] Speaker A: You can also use it to determine not only who your gold medal, you know, the Olympics and Paralympics are just wrapping up right now who our gold medal winner is, but also the silver and bronze medalists. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:49] Speaker A: So those are your secondary high potential individuals that could bring some amazing talent into your organization or into your group, but they're just not as good as that gold medalist. So these are individuals that you can continue to have that conversation with and build your pipeline and then when the right opportunity presents itself, you just bring them on and you've reduced your recruitment process altogether because you have this great pool of candidates that you've already talked to because you've screened them all. And so there's, there's different ways that you can use these advantages to it and to how to build your organization. And it's not just in that current state, it's also future state as well. Oh yeah. With the, with the process, when you're talking to people, maybe there's somebody that doesn't like with all of those checkboxes that we talked about, like, maybe there's somebody that doesn't have. The best way to put it is the CPA is. Maybe somebody doesn't have that cpa. However, they have their diploma or their degree, they're doing some of the coursework already. They're looking to get involved and they want to be an accounting technician. So you know, this person has future state potential, but also you can have those screening questions in there to determine their high potential and their diamond in the rough. [00:24:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:11] Speaker A: Kind of ability. So they might not have all the things, but this person has dedicated themselves to becoming that cpa, that accountant. Right. So you can go into all of the different measurements there. So again, it's not only like determining the high potential, it's determining the people that you could mold. Like we were talking about those attitudes, the ones that are intending to move forward, but then also the ones that you know that you want to work with in the future. So it's a triple win when you do the screening rate. Absolutely. [00:24:42] Speaker B: You're talking about responsibilities. I, I always tell people when they're looking for work to, for whatever reason they're not where they are for. There's several reasons and what a lot of it has to do with the stuff that, you know, the job that they were doing. So what I usually tell people is take a piece of paper, make yourself two columns and then let's say, and say take the last two, three jobs that you've had. What are the things that you really enjoyed about it? What are the things that you did what the things that you did not enjoy about it? And then I said once you have those two columns, when you were looking at jobs, if you see those tasks or responsibilities on, in the job description, well then don't, don't apply for that because it's going to be like you're going right into the same everyday thing that you were doing before. [00:25:33] Speaker A: I love that I actually do something very similar. But I put it into. We were talking about vectors before. Would you fly? I would not fly because of the vectors. But I work with people and I tell them to do a skills cross. So instead of two columns, make a quadrant and then put at the top of the page the things that you love to do on that, you know, Y axis I love to do and then hate to do at the very bottom. And then on the XY axis, you know, what you are really good at or what you've been told you're really good at. And then things that you don't think that you're good at. And then start to plot again those last two, three roles. And then figure out where things are. And when you kind of look at it all plotted into that area, you can go, okay, here's my zone of genius, which is the love to do and I'm really good at and forget everything else. But again, it's easy to get rid of the jobs that you don't want to be working at because you can see it. It's a visual cue. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Right? Why put, why put yourself through the headache of doing those things? You know, I mean, I could, you know, because there are people out there who will, oh, I didn't like doing it. But maybe it's gonna be different at another organization. Well, it's not gonna be different. It's gonna be the same. So don't, don't put yourself through that, you know, and as a recruiter, the last thing you'd want to do is have somebody come back and see you six months later and say, hey, it didn't work out. I need, you know, I need, I need help finding something out. For any recruiter that's not what they want. Like they, they're putting somebody or they're helping somebody. Whether they're helping an organization find people or helping people find their jobs. We don't, you know, recruiters don't want to have people coming back six, eight months later. They want them to be there permanently or as long as they, they feel that they want to stay there. Not like in a short time frame. It's, that's not what they want exactly. [00:27:23] Speaker A: The intention is to have a long term relationship. Once you make that match for individuals or help make the match. Sometimes I make the match, sometimes I just create the process to help them, so. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, it's, I mean, and we go into it, like you mentioned dating it. I mean, when you're, you start dating somebody, you're going into it not thinking that it's going to be a short term thing. You're going in it because you know, oh, this could be you know, there's a potential of this being long term or forever. That's what you're looking for. You're not looking to be like, oh, it's a short term thing. [00:27:57] Speaker A: Exactly. And everybody has non negotiables when it comes to that. Right. If you think of it like your employer, you're going to be spending five days a week, or maybe up to five days a week, up to six days a week, depending on what type of role you get and a lot of time vested there. So you have to be comfortable in the environment that you're going to be working in. Especially if you've not told your truth during the process of recruitment, in the screening process, then now you're kind of stuck with that kind of environment that you might not enjoy. Right. [00:28:30] Speaker B: So I think we talked about a little bit, but I want to go in this a little bit deeper here. Ali, how do organizations improve candidate screening? Because I know that a lot of organizations struggle with this. So a lot of people that, A lot of conversations that I'm having, this is a big struggle with a lot of organizations and a lot of businesses. How do we, how do, how do we help them improve that? [00:28:51] Speaker A: So I would say it needs to go beyond the job description. So first off, you need to have a job description, something that'll outline what responsibilities that role will do. And if you're coming up with the first role in an organization, like let's say you need an octopus wrangler, great. What is that octopus wrangler going to do? What are they going to do on a day, to day, on a week to week, month to month, once a year? What is it going to look like? But then you have to go deeper than that. You need to say, okay, what would they need to have, like bare minimum to come into this role? Is it educational? Is it years of experience? What does years of experience even mean? I know people that worked at the bank just as long as I did. I'm not a banker. I do not trust me to open up a loan for you. But they're great at it, right? So there's that, you know, does years of experience mean more than expertise? And remember that from the future state, when you're coming up with this job description, also come up with an ideal candidate profile or this Persona. Come up with this person that you're going to hire and what does this person have? How do they act? How do they interact with people who are the stakeholders that they'll interact with? One of the questions that we thought was really Important part of our process was to ask who are they going to be in contact with? Are they going to be customer facing or is customer facing kind of like a secondary or tertiary thing? Like the, again, accounts payable, having to call up a vendor to say, you know, we need to take another week or whatever to pay. Like there's, there's things that come into play that you don't normally think of on a day to day basis that might come in down the road. So this is where talking to an expert about how to create this is a good idea. But once you have that ideal candidate profile, you need to understand again how they fit within the role, within the team and then the, the organization as a whole. Because it's important for people to go into jobs understanding that their job is important and not just, you know, push this button and something will come out. The other end of a conveyor belt is great. There needs to be role identity on how the work there is doing is important, otherwise that role really shouldn't exist. And then there needs to be task identity. Are they going to too many meetings and it's not really being important for them to gather those meetings like the information, like what's the minimum that they need to do to interact and what, where do they find their identity as an individual in that particular role? So identifying that ideal candidate profile is really important. And then you have to also identify how that individual will relate to what the ethos or the mission and values and vision are of the organization. You know, if you're somebody that is, you know, you're going through your green certification, your, your B rated company, you've got all of these different, you know, accolades for becoming more consciously aware of the environment. And you get somebody that, you know, rolls in with their lifted truck that smokes diesel out the back, maybe not the right individual for your company. Right. I mean there's, there's certain things that align again, the attitudes behind it and the ethos that are beyond just the what do they know, what can they do and how can they help us? Right. And then really when it comes down to determining what that ideal candidate profile is, then you have to put the questions, like the right questions to ask against that profile and determine is this the best person or what is the best person for this role based on what we have and who's applied. And so the big thing would be the two types of questions that you would need to ask. And there's, you can ask a short list of questions, do not make it like 50 plus questions. Or anything like that. Short, short and sweet, you know, 10 plus. Can they do the job? Can this person actually do the job and will they do the job? And so that's where that high potential comes in and that's where you can understand if somebody can solve the problems that they might face on a day to day within that organization. So those two types of questions aligned back against that profile that you've created and then you can go from there. Every time that I've made this formula for companies that I've worked with and again, three time founder I've been hiring for, I guess we're over 140, 144 companies right now. Doing the quick math in my head and I've helped some really large companies scale. So this process has been repeated many times across Canada and it works. [00:33:47] Speaker B: Right, right. So I'm going to go off the rails a little bit here because I, but I, because I think it's a little bit pertinent here. But you're talking about job descriptions and I think it's super, super important. As far as we're talking about candidate screenings here, I study a lot of job descriptions. I look at them every day and I, what I think is super important and what I think is missing is in job descriptions is that the information is good, it's clear and concise, it's well written, but there's nothing out there. So if you're looking at a job description saying okay, yeah, I can do this task, I can do this task, I can do this task, you know, let's apply. But nothing about the job descriptions. And this has been a while now that I've been feeling this way. Nothing about job descriptions these days is saying to me, oh my God, this company seems like the most amazing company. I need to do everything that I can to get this job. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I need to do everything that I can. Because I'm reading the mission, the vision, the value and they're not talking about how they are, they value vulnerability, they're not using the key words as they say. But I can read it in there and I can tell that this organization is like that. And those are the types of things that, that have changed over the past few years. People are looking for and they're looking for what I call a safe work environment. And this is, these are the things that they want to. Again, you're not using those words or the buzzwords, but I want to be able to think of those buzzwords when I'm reading the job descriptions. I just want to get your feeling on that. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you brought this up because I can see with certainty that you need to take a look at some of the job postings in tech. And I'm not talking about those large tech companies, I'm talking about the scaling mid size tech companies because they will put down information about why you want to work with us and it's not just because we have a ping pong table or a table tennis. Right, right. They talk about more about their purpose and their why in the job posting. And then they also put some more like you should work for us if, and you know, and what you'll get for working with us. Some of the problems that you'll solve when you're here. And so they take a different spin on it because they need to stand out. And that's the big thing. Because tech, everybody's fighting for the same talent pool right now. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:36:34] Speaker A: And when you take that, when you step outside of tech and innovation and you look at some of, you know, the regular corporate professional services kind of area, there's a lot less employer branding because there's more of that professional feel to it. However, we're seeing the talent is being more in tune with. We want to know who we're working for. We don't just want a list of like a bullet point list of who's there. Like, yeah, great, amazing. I'm going to be able to do this. Perfect. What kind of company is this? Where do you spend your Fridays? Do you donate to charity? Do I get to donate to charity? Donate my time to charity? What does this look like for you? Who are you as a brand? And unfortunately the companies that don't have that employer brand are going to be the ones that are going to be left behind because other companies that adopt that and start spreading it through their social media and online, they're going to have a better, you know, reach when it comes to the type of talent that they want to attract. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:34] Speaker A: Who you are attracting comes from that posting. And if it's the old newspaper style, I'm sorry, friends, but you are not going to get the good people that you're looking for. [00:37:43] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. And I, I'm a huge advocate of Pat in passion. I feel like when you're doing something, whatever you're doing as far as a career, you got to have passion for it and that's going to create engagement in your organization because that's going to be that person that's going in that's passionate and loves what they do is going to stick around for a long time. And when you're reading that job description, I, you know, if I can sense that or feel that I'm going to go through the rails and I'm going to do whatever I can. I may not get it, but I'm gonna, I'll be able, you know, I want to see that I did everything I could to get in that company. And if I didn't get the job that I applied for, I'm looking for other jobs on that site. To try to get. [00:38:29] Speaker A: To submit. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah, to try to try. I'm doing a general submit or I am looking. I'm, I'm continuously going on that company site and I'm continuously looking to see if there's anything new on that site or I'm connecting with somebody on LinkedIn who works at that company and I'm building rapport with them, getting to know them and saying, hey, this is what I do. If you ever hear anything, you know, let me know. And you know that because I'm, I, I want to get in there. So it's just interesting to me when we're talking about candidates. Greetings. And, and then, you know, I feel like, you know, the job description and the screenings, I, I feel like go hand in hand because when you're doing that, then you're getting. You talked earlier about good candidates. If we're having, if we have a good job job description, then screen. Job screening or candid screening is going to be a lot easier or a hell of a lot easier because you might get your find yourself in a situation where you got like a handful of people and you're like, holy crap, we have all these good people and we just, we just don't have anything for them. Well, that's a good situation to be in. [00:39:39] Speaker A: And honestly, it comes down to a couple other things too that employers can do about that. If they don't have the full capacity to come up with an employer brand, there's two simple things that they can do with their job posting or their job description. Run it through the Gender Decoder. It's a free online parsing tool that'll say whether or not you're language is coming across as either very masculine or very feminine, or if it's using inappropriate terms that could be potentially, you know, exclusionary or unintentionally exclusionary just by the verbiage that you're using or the words that you're using. And number two, there's another One that it's a little bit more difficult to find. But essentially you type in grade level reading for your, your job posting, and there's one of the sites that will actually do a quick review of the language that you're using again in your posting and say whether or not it's accessible to people that read at or above a grade six level or whatever language level. It is a lot of times that we forget that in our professional states that English might be a second or third or fourth or fifth language for people. Right. And it, I think in Canada two years ago, the statement was almost 50% of adults have a grade 6 reading level or below. So if you're trying to attract individuals for a certain type of role that might not need a reading level, reading comprehension, I should say above that, then great, that's fine. But if you're putting, you know, two verbose words inside of a general help position, you might not get the people that you need or you might get the wrong individuals. I'm not saying that everybody that doesn't know how to read is not an intellectual. I'm just saying if they cannot understand what's being presented or if you're, if you're too specific in your language, you might not get the people that you need. [00:41:38] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Do you think that candidate screenings will become more relevant in the future? [00:41:47] Speaker A: I thought about this one long and hard and I'm gonna say yes and no. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:52] Speaker A: I'm gonna say that it is absolutely gonna become apparent, like just, it'll become the most important thing that people will do in recruitment. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:05] Speaker A: But not the way it's done present. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:08] Speaker A: It will become something that there'll be more emphasis around getting to know individuals beyond their online presence, their social media, their resume, their previous job history. They'll be more of understanding how that person works and why, you know, who they are and what their purpose is, their why and getting to know it from that perspective. But I also feel like the employers are going to have to start pushing back there too. So even though we are in an employer marketplace right now, so we're getting 600 to one kind of application style, process or levels for any role. Typically speaking, employers can just say whoever I want, I will get to choose because I have 600 people. But there's going to be pushback from the candidates and saying no, I want to know more about you because this posting doesn't give me enough. Just like we were talking about. [00:43:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:04] Speaker A: So they're going to want to do, you know, Sit in the office for a day just to see what the general office looks like. There's going to be coffee dates, there's going to be, you know, time, like informal meetings that will be presented so that everyone can see what the role looks like before they actually get married to it, as it were. And I feel like that's something that's going to be kind of coming forward in the next couple years where the early adopters of that type of, of engagement with candidates, they're going to see great success and they're not going to have to put up recruitment postings because they're going to have a talent pipeline again. [00:43:44] Speaker B: Right, right. I, I see that coming because I, I definitely see the conversation I'm having. People are wanting more and yes, you gotta have your salary, you gotta have, you gotta pay your bills, you gotta put food on the table. But I feel like people are wanting more and it's not just about, you know, the days of work or the, you know, the, the, you know, the hours that I'm working and you know, what the dress code is like. They're gonna be like more in depth conversations and questions. And so I do see it being a little bit more relevant. But yes, you're gonna have, I think there's got to be a little bit of adjustment period and trying to change and you know, adapting to what candidates are looking for. I think there's got to be a little bit more of an adapting period for, so that they can. Because we're. Mark, you're an organization, you're marketing your company. So if you, you know, you're, you are the face of the company and they are asking you questions, you gotta, you know, if you're, especially if it's somebody that you're interviewing and in your head you're thinking, man, this is, these, this is a good potential person for my department. You gotta make sure that you're doing your damnedest to make sure, you know, that, that they're interested in, in the company. So if there's an offer that they're gonna accept it. So I think there's just a little bit of, a little bit of trying to figure stuff out and adjusting and I guess review of their process, of the processes. I think it's kind of, it's kind of where I'm going. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Anything with the process that happens either from the candidate side or the employer side amplifies once that relationship has been solidified. So if there's any reason to say no, I don't think this is going to be A good fit. Walk away. [00:45:48] Speaker B: That's my, that's my, that's my advice too. I will say if you don't feel good, it doesn't feel in your gut, then just walk away. [00:45:57] Speaker A: For sure. Yeah, absolutely. [00:45:59] Speaker B: What is your one takeaway want the audience to get from this episode today? [00:46:04] Speaker A: I want people to know that this is an important process that they can easily implement if they're an organization to cull the herd, so to speak, to get to the cream of, you know, the creme de la creme, getting to the top. If you do it correctly, you will find more than just the one person for that one role. You'll be able to find future talent as well. And candidates really do appreciate the process because they can find out early on from a time commitment perspective whether or not it's going to be a good fit for them as well. And so all in all, this saves everybody time and money and it's getting to know you on a higher level on a deeper understanding of what each other offers. So I say it's a must for every organization, especially for the organizations that are growing from, you know, 10 to 11 or 20 to 21, the smaller organizations. This will be infinitely measurable for how great it can be. [00:47:09] Speaker B: I love that because there's a lot of those organizations that don't have hr. They just put somebody there and they're taking care of a lot of the HR functions and they don't understand a lot of the HR functions. So, you know, you know, let's make it easier on ourselves and, you know, let's not have somebody that, you know for the same job. Let's not have to apply or have to send out a job description three times in two years. Let's, let's, let's make it good. Let's get it right from the beginning and find those good candidates. Not everybody is going to work out. We understand that. But if we can get the majority of our people to work out, rather than having, you know, less amount of people working out or, or not sticking around or using the company as a, as a, as leverage or as a learning curve to move on. Let's, you know, let's, let's do things a little bit differently, for sure. So any, any final thoughts today? [00:48:07] Speaker A: I can say from the work that I've been doing, so I've been working specifically with candidates screening with Talent Tour for the past five years. I can say with certainty with this process that we have, we have additional information that we can provide the employers that keeps them at 97% retention at three and a half years and counting. Could you imagine what that would do for your business if you didn't lose the people within one year? [00:48:37] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Organizations. Can you imagine a world where you have 90% of people sticking around in your company? How amazing would that be? [00:48:50] Speaker A: 97%. [00:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah, 97%. That would be. That. That would be the ultimate situation for any organization. I love that. [00:49:03] Speaker A: It can be done. I'm telling you right now, it can be done. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Listen, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. Ali. We mentioned earlier that this was something that was going ongoing and we had trouble getting it organized or setting a time. [00:49:20] Speaker A: That's on me. [00:49:21] Speaker B: But thank you. And listen, it's not. It's nobody's to blame. It's situational. We get it. But I am just honored. I was honored and, and so lucky, I felt, to connect with you from day one. And I really feel you are a genuine individual who just is so compassionate and, and, and thoughtful for, you know, and for what you. And you just love what you do. And I, I just love that about you and I admire that about you. And I feel lucky not only to have you as a guest today, but to have you on, to have you as a connection of mine, someone that I can turn to and, and chat about whatever or whatever work situation or professional things or ideas. It is an honor for me to. To be associated with you and I look forward to further conversations. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Thank you. That's very kind. You're making me tear up here, Andrew. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Well, I need it. It comes from the bottom of my heart and I really do, I really do mean that. So on behalf of myself and my guest, Allie, I'd like to thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everybody, that when we all work together, we can accomplish anything. [00:50:46] Speaker A: You have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content. Hit subscribe.