Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse podcast. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today we're going to be talking about helpful DEI initiatives for hiring managers. And I'm so happy to have as my guest today Sydney Elaine Butler. Welcome to the show, Sydney. Thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. And I'm glad we finally get to do this.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yes, it's been a while since we've been kind of trying to organize it, so I'm super happy that we were able to make it work today. How are things with you? What's going on in your world? What's new? Give us the tea, the deets, give us it all. What's happening?
[00:00:51] Speaker A: So I'm still the founder of Accessible Creates. I'm starting a new venture in helping job seekers with employment. But it's really tied to the reference we're doing at my company and just really overall trying to make the workplace more inclusive and accessible to people that look like me and people that also look different than me. Right. Because they're all different and really trying to just trying to find a place in this world that can have an impact but also create peace internally with myself.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: That's awesome. Sounds like things are going really well. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to get things going. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Bring it on.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: So I asked this one in another episode, but I thought it would be great to ask you this one as well.
So the question is, what is the most valuable lesson you learned in your career?
[00:01:35] Speaker A: In my career, I think the most valuable lesson I've learned in my career is that you don't have to have biggest network. I think when I first graduated it was like obviously I was trying to network with people as much as possible, reaching out to them on LinkedIn, but really I now learned that it's better to have a solid network of people that you can continuously check in on people to check on, on you, you can catch up with and that, you know, really building that networking, really getting to know people especially help those relationships because, you know, not. I think a lot of times people think more, you know, people you connect with, you know, gonna get more opportunities. But I think really posturing those connections and you Never know what's gonna lie. Like, I met an individual, for example, at a networking event and you know, I want to network with everyone there, connected with a couple of them and then. But really, you know, enjoy this person's company and you know what they were all about.
Met with them a couple times and then they're actually, oh, I have an old, you know, friend from when I was a kid. Then when she's looking for what you kind of have to. She's looking to bring in services that you kind of offer. Would you like to have, you know, meet with this person, see if there is areas for you to help them at their company?
You know, if I was just focused on, you know, really connecting with everyone in that webinar and that in that workshop that, you know, I wanted to have fostered that specific relationship and have, you know, built that, who wouldn't know what I'm all about, wouldn't even like me as a person. And so I think really fostering those connections and really understanding that by building those and really recognizing that that can really have a huge impact on your career. And just always with that to always be kind and really, you never know.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Take you, you're speaking my language there. I am all about rapport building. It's huge for me. It's been huge for everything that I've done and everything that I've accomplished and hearing that I'm going to continue to accomplish. So that is my love language. What I truly believe in, rapport building is. Is super important. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that. It's super cool. So I know you kind of got into a little bit of what you do, but I'd like to kind of go into a little bit in depth. So why don't you start telling us a little about yourself? And of course I want to hear a little bit about your why as well.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm Sunny Elaine Butler. I'm the founder of a company called Accessible Creates. I myself am neurodivergent, have some disabilities. I'm also biracial and I'm an HR professional. And so I studied human resources at school, worked in human resources. And so I still consider myself a HR professional because I'm. But I'm really trying to also make human resources and businesses as a whole more inclusive and accessible from my own lived experience, you know, being so passionate also about the HR community, the business community. And so my WHY is kind of committed to fostering an environment that enables success for all individuals, regardless of any barriers they face. You know, you know, physical barriers, material barriers, you know, internal biases and external biases, and really just trying to remove those barriers as much as possible.
Really educating on the barriers that do exist to employment and to both, you know, actually getting hired for a job, but also actually retaining the retention piece when it comes to employment, and so really trying to help remove those obstacles. And I had my share of both, you know, opportunities where I was barrier free, and it was amazing, and I felt like I could succeed at my job. But I've also had the flip side where I was working with kids, teens and adults with disabilities, were becoming more aware of my own disabilities and my, my fellow co workers were not understanding what was happening and, you know, actually spread rumors about me and caused my supervisors to deny me accommodations. And so all these things really led to my why and why I do what I do.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Super amazing story.
I love when you talk about fostering an environment, and I love that environment of care and compassion.
So let's get this going here. To implement successful DEI initiatives, what should hire, what should hiring managers focus on?
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of times hiring managers kind of look at the big picture and that's important, but I think it's also in the details, right? Because everyone has such different lives and, you know, we're also busy as human beings. And so really, you know, taking that wider approach, but also being able to, to be adaptable, to be flexible, to be able to adjust things and even diversifying, you know, recruitment strategies, having various channels, looking, you know, where are you finding these talent pools that you're pulling from? Or they're diverse, you know, are you going in person? Are you, are you looking online? Are you reaching out to various different job boards that, you know, source diverse talent and what does that look like? Are you partnering with other organizations that, you know, serve and support underrepresented groups in employment and also I think, reviewing job descriptions. I think a lot of times and sometimes hiring managers and, you know, for the recruit, individuals are just looking at it and, you know, you can read it and you know what it means. It's kind of like an assignment. I say, like, you know, when you're in school and you're reading an assignment back and you're like, oh, this makes perfect sense where someone else reads it or, you know, read it out loud, you can start to really see those gaps and so really review your job description or have someone else, you know, review it in a different department within the organization. Be like, does that make sense? Especially too, because some of the job descriptions, they're for these different departments, but they're written by the hiring managers or recruitment. And sometimes there's that gap because it's like, okay, this is what it's nice to have on paper for this job, but what's actually required in that job and what is actually required and what can be accommodated? Are you offering accommodation? You know, is that process clear as well? Are you using inclusive language and focusing on skills and from different, not just employment, from volunteering and having those different skill sets.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: And so. And also, I think, also ensuring that the diverse. There's a diverse hiring team in itself. Because a lot of times I remember when I was actively looking for employment, even when I go into organizations now, I see I. I meet with a hiring team and there's like one, you know, black person on the team or there's a lot of lack of diversity, actually on the hiring team.
And so it's having that more diverse team that has a diverse perspective and has to have that diverse representation, not only to be more inclusive and to be more diverse in your actual doing these things and being aware of these things. You're hiring individuals, but it also lets potential candidates know and potential employees know that, hey, this team is actually diverse. I have a shot of actually getting in this organization. Right. And so that's what I would suggest.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: And it's that assumption factor. Right. So we should assume. We shouldn't assume that what we're writing or what we're posting, even in the workplace, we shouldn't assume fully until the person actually says, I understand that or get it. We shouldn't assume that people are going to get it or people are going to understand that when we're. I agree with you 100%. When they're. When you're writing stuff or you're putting stuff out there for people to have a look at, it's always good to have somebody have a look at it or have a second look and then they can give their feedback or. And that way that everybody has that same understanding, those we all want to be on the same page.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: On the same page. So what are one of the challenges or what are some of the challenges in implementing DEI initiatives?
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges is not understanding the importance of retention. And so what I mean by this is a lot of times the D and I initiatives are around hiring around just recruiting individuals that are from diverse backgrounds. And it's. Oh, well, and good, because, you know, you're trying to recruit them, trying to, you know, how Are you actually retaining these individuals in the workplace? You know, now they're in the door. For example, people with disabilities and neurodivergent folks, a lot of times, you know, they actually go through the hiring process. They, you know, it's a struggle, but they can get through it. And then there's actually the retention piece of not feeling like they're actually supported in the work environment. They don't feel like they fit into the culture.
They feel like there's a trick on both sides and good fit after they've been there for a while or even been there for a little bit and really looking okay. How are you retaining diverse employees? How are you encouraging people to, you know, speak up if they need accommodation or if they need some support? How are you ensuring that you're celebrating, you know, diversity days? That to celebrate, we're in Canada, right? So there's only different cultures here. And being aware of all the diverse holidays that are and just acknowledging that and celebrating that. And so that's what makes people stay at an organization. And so I think it's a balancing act between fostering those inclusive cultures but also knowing again, when you have to be flexible, when you have to be adaptable, when you have to provide that one on one support for the employee can be the react. For example, if it's a holiday, does that person need the day off or can they celebrate in the office and can make it a whole office celebration? So looking at no, this is religious, they need the day off. Other days, oh, this is another holiday they celebrate or another holiday that someone else celebrates. Oh, we can channel that in the office. What does that look like? And really understanding that there's not one size fits all to diversity inclusion initiatives.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: I love the not one one size fits all comment there. It's, it's magic to my ears. I just love that. And when you're talking about understanding retention, it is very vital that we do that because like you said, when we can get the people in, sometimes it's easy and simple because there's so many people that are applying for, especially today, in today's world, people are applying for jobs. You can put a posting out and you can get hundreds and hundreds of applicants for that job. So understanding what it is to retain that individual and keep them for a long term, long time is super important. And I think that's, I used the word earlier, rapport building. So we need to make sure that we're building rapport with those teams or these individuals to make sure that they're comfortable and they're enjoying the team and they fit in with the team dynamic.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think also previously, you know, companies just wanted the employee to fit their organization.
But being transparent as the hiring manager, as human resources, who's being the person that the candidate is experiencing from the organization to paint a clear picture of and being transparent to also have the employee see if they actually think they would be a good fit at the organization. Right. And they feel like the organization would be a good fit for them as well.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The organization is definitely doing a lot of marketing for themselves. So it's not just the employee when you're doing an interview, it's not just the employee trying to market themselves. They are doing that. But it's also the company trying to market themselves for the candidate because they will decide whether they want to take an offer if one's given, or if they want to stick around or what have you. So it's very important that organizations understand that for sure. So do you think that organizations as a whole struggle to adapt to DEI initiatives?
[00:12:53] Speaker A: I think that it's very interesting because I think, you know, in 2020, organizations started really understanding that. It's been around for a lot longer than that.
But I think it's kind of more like it's kind of under a fire with a fire. Like, let's really have to focus on this now.
And so I think some companies and some organizations were like, okay, we really have to focus on this. And did it from a really holistic perspective. Did not just have a checkbox exercise. So it kind of broken down to three different categories. There were companies that were like, eh, we're fine, we're not, you know, we don't need to focus on that. Then there's companies that kind of just saw as a checkbox, okay, this is what we do to do the bare minimum, trainer employees one time, keep going. And there's companies that really took that step back and it's like, okay, what does our culture look like now? Where do we want our culture to look like? Right. And so I think, and this is across various industries, I'm fortunate enough to work with various industries. And so seeing, you know, the difference is in these different industries and seeing how different companies in these industries act and how they go about actually doing DEI initiatives. And so I think it really depends, but I think it all starts from the overall organizational culture. And so companies that I think didn't really have a strong sense of culture and we're kind of just like continuously to like, kind of Scrape by the word and keep going and you know, make profits or, you know, do really well what they're offering either a product or service. You know, they kind of struggle more with, you know, adapting to diverse inclusion initiative. Companies that, you know, want to reach a different market or, you know, see moving forward and had, you know, a clear picture of where their culture is and really want to, how they want to move forward and how and being able to collect that feedback from the employees or have continuous conversations with their employees about how they feel about the culture and how they feel like they're doing. And really those are the companies that were like, okay, we have to focus on this, go beyond just the checkbox training exercise, you know, really having conversation, having the hard conversations, bringing an expert, but really, again, leveraging the human capital that exists at their companies. But, you know, really understanding that how it's going to be the impact on the day to day.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: When I'm listening to you talking, you're saying, so a company focus on this, we're going to focus on that. We're just the bare minimum, we're going to do. Okay, this is what we have to do. We'll just do the bare minimum. And then the culture part. Okay, what is our culture? What is our culture now, where we want it to go. And you mentioned adaptability earlier. I think that is a key right there is figuring out are you satisfied with the way that things are going within your organization or are we continuously trying to make it better? Like when we stay stagnant and we say, okay, we've made it, a lot of people will say, oh, I've been this for so long, I don't need to learn anything more.
That's when you start to get stagnant and worse things happen for you. You need to continuously learn and change and adapt. And if you're a company that's looking at your culture and if you have a really good culture in your company and you're looking to get better at it, even though you think it's good, that's really good. You're in a good situation and people are working for that company are in a really good working environment as well because they know that your company is always continuously doing things to make things better. That's what we want. We want things to, we don't want it to be stagnant, we want it to be better.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think really understanding that, like you said, like, you know, you can be good at your organization, culture can be good. But again, there's always Room for improvement. And, you know, there can be. And I think even understanding that the small micro changes, even the companies that don't have a good culture, even making the small changes, owning up that, okay, I'm. You're learning and having that culture. Learning is so important too. I think companies that don't foster a culture, an environment for learning is, you know, one of the ways that they struggle to adapt to diversity, inclusion initiative. Because they don't want to do that learning. Right. And so having understanding that learning is a part of life as human beings that, you know, that's kind of what sets us apart sometimes that we continuously learn. We have learning at such a rapid rate. Right. And so how can we harness that in our workplaces and in our organization?
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, we all make mistakes. We're not perfect. So how would you, as a manager, ensure that a workplace. Ensure a workplace that has values, inclusion and diversity?
[00:17:27] Speaker A: That's. That's a good question. I think really promoting the open dialogue, you know, sometimes it's scary because, you know, we, again, we're all different human beings. We all have different upbringings and cultures and understandings of life and the world. But being open to, you know, it's like, okay, I don't have to agree with you, but, you know, you agree to disagree kind of thing. And so just like hearing people out, hearing distractive, giving people a chance to learn to do better, they want to do better, recognizing the different values that exist. Like, I worked with a company and they were based in Canada, but since they, you know, they were working remote, they had people from all over the world working with them. And so there's definitely. When I was doing, after I did my training, and even in the training people there was trimming bum another country in South America. And he's like, thank you for this presentation. I'm learning so much. You know, my customary. And it was. I came up with specifics, but it was very opposed. It was different to what I was saying. And he's like, I'm glad I had this moment to learn, you know, more the culture that my company wants me to exhibit. He's like, I can have my own culture, you know, in my home country and what that looks like, but at work, it's a different culture and setting up those expectations. Right. So. And even having that dialogue. And someone else jumped in and said to him, you know, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, being trans, your culture is different. And I was. How they were raised in Canada, and this is kind of the norm for them. And they kind of already knew some of this stuff. And it seems like it seemed like basic understanding to them, this other person, it was brand new, right? And so just having the open dialogue, being open to hearing different perspectives and hearing different values and also having that in bringing that to the table, like, okay, we can have a different value outside of work, but what values do we want to present at work and what do we want to foster? Even, you know, you said values, diversity, inclusion, but really understanding where your team's values are and where your organization's values are and how can you make them align for value at work. And then I think also a huge thing is actually, you know, a lot of people say, you know, diversity inclusion training, that's a huge first step, but really to maintain that and having ongoing training, having ongoing conversations based on those trainings, having check ins, okay, how does everyone feel six months after that training? Did things change? Did things stay the same? Where do you want to go now? What does that look like? And part of that too, developing inclusive policies and procedures, you know, based on the trainings or based on other factors. Employees like the employee feedback about the policies and procedures. Do they feel like they're inclusive? Do they feel like they're accessible? You know, is it an accessible format? Are you using again that inclusive language and accessible language in your policies? Because policies are the blueprints of an organization. And so I, and as the manager too, are you actually using these policies and really, you know, when they are modified to be more inclusive and accessible, are you actually implementing them effectively? And really not just, you know, talking the talk, but walking the walk, so to speak. And then I think also having employees, resource groups and having people that have that lived experience is so important. And as a manager fostering that and understand that, you know, you know, you have your day to day tasks at work, but also how employee resource groups plays a role in how people are going to build the organization and impact how they show up in the day to day. They're going to feel, you know, and really understanding as a manager, really to really foster and to value that equity, inclusion and diversity, you need to be able to have these groups and really being able to leverage them and really understand how they fit in your organization, what that looks like.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: I think you're right on target there. If you're having those conversations and if you're seeing, asking them what's going on and I know people will say, oh, you know, we're, you know, busy, I don't have time to check with dax. I have Other obligations as a manager, I totally get that, and I understand what it means to do that. However, I think if you make the time to show that you have some care and compassion, and we're not talking about just walking by somebody. Hey, how's it going? Not bad. You? Not bad. On your way to a meeting. My firm belief is, if I'm going to ask you, Sydney, how you're doing, how's things going? I got to be prepared for that. The answer that you're going to receive, that I'm going to receive from you of how things are going. If I don't have the time to do that, then I would say, don't answer it. Or I would say, sydney, how's it going? And then you'd be like, telling me all kinds of stuff. I'd say, okay, Sydney, I'll tell you what. I really have to get to this meeting. However, I do have some time later on this afternoon here. Why don't you send me a message and I'll let you know when I'm free and we'll take a half hour or so to. To discuss and you can tell me what your concerns are, Let me know how things are going. That just tells me that. That I care. I really actually am concerned and I want to know what's going on rather than, hey, how's it going? Not bad. You? Not bad. You, and just keep walking. That doesn't tell me anything.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I said that to my clients Slides. Like, really, you know, having again, those authentic relationships have, you know, you don't have to know the complete ins and outs, you know, but really getting to know that person more. And then once you actually start asking and you generally, you like, you actually care and, you know, assume we can tell when someone actually cares or when someone just, you know, it's a throwaway. How are you? Right? And it seems rushed, you know, going to a meeting, but, you know, like you said, send me a message or try some time later to just talk about, you know, how you're feeling and all these different things. And so really. And then some managers, like, you know, you're busy in the day or like, you know, or even like having that time out in your day and really also being transparent with employees. Hey, I'm extra busy this week. I know we supposed to have a meeting or, you know, people are flexible and this again, that transparency. Because I think sometimes managers, you know, they're kind of put on this pedestal for some reason, and they just need another human being that, you know, was good at what they do. And so they had to look up a promoter to manager.
And so. But it's like again, just human being. And so really meeting as humans first and really recognizing that. But when you take time for your employees, when you take time to really make those connections, it's actually going to save you more time in the long run.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Let's be frank here. If you are a parent with children, you were managing them, so you were dealing with them in a certain manner. And a lot of, I think a lot of people who have never been a manager before come into a management position. They feel like they have to be like a parent, which means that they have to be firm. We. I get that there's times where you have to have those difficult conversations, but there's a way to have those difficult conversations. You don't have to bash, you don't have to put somebody down.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like we're all adults. We're all, you know, in this same environment, we're all professionals. We're all, you know, and we're all on the same team. Right. We all want the best for the company and for the work.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: And so what does that actually mean? And how can we respectfully communicate with one another?
Again, we not. We might not agree on everything, but, you know, it was own to help and say, I want the best for you.
You want to do your best work. You know, what does this look like?
[00:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And how could I help you if there's is. What are you, what are you having trouble with? How can I help you? So in closing, what is one takeaway that you want our audience to take from this episode?
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Hmm, let me see. I think the one takeaway I'd like the audience to know from this episode is that retention of diverse employees and retention also in diversity equity inclusion strategies is so critical, you know, so playing the long game, so to speak. Right. And I think really understanding that it's not one and done, it's not just a checkbox and done. It's continuous work that everyone in the workplace plays a part in fostering every single day.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: I love your answer there. The long game. My call to action, everybody, would be to like, share and follow this episode. And as far as you as an individual, you're super kind and compassionate and I just admire all the work that you're doing. I just want to say continue to do great things because you are doing some amazing things.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Andrew.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: You're very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest Sydney, I'd like to thank you all for joining today and until next time. Be safe and remember, if we all work together, we can accomplish anything.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: You have been listening to let's Be Diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.
