Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today our topic is going to be Managing through a crisis and my guest today is Ashley Incumb Klima. Ashley, thank you so much for joining us today. It's super fun to have you.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Andrew. I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Me as well. How are things going with you? What's going on in your world? Give us the tea, give us the deets, give us it all. What's going on?
[00:00:46] Speaker A: A lot, A lot is going on. You know, I am getting ready to launch a few things within my business.
I've been recovering from a small surgery so getting back into some full time work and just really trying to hit the ground running here. Busy, busy.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Sometimes we say busy is good and sometimes we can be a little bit chaotic. Sometimes it is a positive thing. So we'll take it as a positive.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yes, it is a positive. I would say it is definitely a positive right now.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Well, thanks very much for sharing how everything's going. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to get things going. Are you ready for yours?
[00:01:25] Speaker A: I am ready. Bring it on.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So your question today is what is your favorite color and how does it represent your. Who you are?
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Great question. I like this one. My favorite color is blue.
And you know, it's, it's my favorite color because it is the color of water.
I love the ocean. I love lakes. I very, very much resonate with water being near water any, anytime, anywhere, any type, river, pond, you know, give it to me. I just, I feel so grounded. I just think that, you know, water, they just really represent life. You know, that's my, my business name. Tides of life. You know, I just. Right. Sometimes it's stormy and turbulent. Sometimes it's, you know, smooth and serene. The tides come in and out. So yeah, blue water, that's, that's my thing.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree with you there. Blue is kind of. I was watching a video the other day and someone was talking about walking through or putting her feet in the water just as the. On the be beach and not going fully in but just walking and the water's just kind of brushing to their, to their feet and they said it was just so relaxing to them and I could definitely see that for sure. I know for myself, I put on, I have one of those sound machines when I go to sleep and I put on, that's the waves that I usually put on. And it's usually the ocean hitting the dock or what have you. And I'm usually out probably five minutes after I put it on because it's just so relaxing. So it's either that or when it's really, really raining really, really hard and you're hearing the rain hitting the window, that too is super relaxing for me. So water, it can be destructive, but it's also very relaxing.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: It's the essence of life. Right. Our bodies are mostly made of water.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: You know, which it surely is.
Well, thanks so much for having fun with me. I love your answer and I love how quick that you responded to that. So that's super fun. Why don't we start off with you telling us a little about yourself and your why.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So thank you so much again, Andrew Y name is Ashley Nklima. I am a birth and bereavement doula and certified grief educator. I am the founder of my business Tides of Life Doula and Perinatal Bereavement Services. My why is. Gosh, it's. It's very rooted in personal lived experience as well as professional experience.
I really am incredibly passionate about grief, specifically supporting families through the grief associated with pregnancy and infant loss.
As I said, that's born out of my own experience.
In 2011, I experienced the, the loss of my first child in the second trimester of pregnancy. My son was diagnosed with a fatal disorder that led me down a path of a termination for medical reasons actually. And three months after that I experienced an early five week pregnancy loss. And I worked in an ob GYN office at the time. As I said, both professional and personal experience here and I have a long background in women's health and working in a hospital setting. Perinatal loss coordinator and I just, I found that the things that I experienced as challenges seem to be what is reflected back from other lost families that I have encountered this lack of support, this lack of feeling understood in their grief. And I don't know, I've known since 2011 that I was meant to take my pain and my son's legacy and do something with it.
And that eventually led me to this work, to supporting others in their grief and just really giving them that space to be held and to be seen and witnessed.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: I want to take the time to commend you here because I feel like sometimes when we have life experiences, first of all, we learn through them, but also it can go in two different directions. We can continue with the grief or we can turn the table and say, okay, well, over time it's never going to be the same, but you build up that strength and you have that understanding that things are going to be different and that you are going to be able to help people. You'll never know exactly what somebody's feeling, but you will understand, you'll have a little bit of sympathy for that individual. So I can definitely understand where you were coming from and of course, more sympathies, and I'm sure listeners will say your sympathies for that. But you know, you seem to have become stronger individual because of it. And that is, that is remarkable.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you know, I, I, when I reflect back on that time and I've had many other, you know, instances that are very grief heavy, trauma heavy. And the main factor, the key thing in, in my healing journey was feeling like my grief was witnessed. Finding those people that really understood, gave me the space and just met me where I was at. And so to be able to do that for others is incredibly meaningful. And being able to help teach others how to do that for, you know, those in their life, personal, professional, anyway, is just, it really means a lot. And you know, I feel like if I can help one person, you know, I've, I've done something good. Right.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: And I'm sure through the process. So we all know that managers manage and leaders lead. So I'm sure you learned through the process of doing both when to do both and when both needed. And one of the keys is communication. And I know we're going to probably talk about that as time goes on through this conversation, but I know that communication is key or probably has been key in your process as far as building what you're trying to do and what you're trying to build for sure. So why don't we start things off here? Why does managing through crisis need proactive planning?
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I really love this question. You know, proactive planning helps prevent reactivity in the moment. When you have a proactive plan or if you don't, I should say, you know, crisis can feel really overwhel. You know, if you just wait until crisis hits, you can be ill prepared for how to respond. You know, people need space to grieve and resources and you know, when you have plans in place, it just makes that process so much smoother. So much gentler.
And it just really provides that time and space to be able to deal with, with that crisis appropriately. Right. You know, when you get caught up in chaos, nobody benefits.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: And I would say too that when you're going through a crisis and if it's planned, I mean, you can't plan everything, but when most things are planned, you're ready for certain situations. And because of that, you're looked upon as someone who is able to be calm and with a calm demeanor through that crisis. Because it's like, I've been there before, I know how this. And then others kind of see that and then they just follow suit.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I want to point out too that proactive planning doesn't mean expecting the worst either. Right. Or expecting anticipating bad things. It's just the recognition that life is life and it's gonna happen. You know, it's exactly the fact that we cannot plan for crisis. Right. And just, you know, when you have things in place, support in place, and especially, you know, from a business standpoint, as a leader, a manager, company, having things in place for your employees is, I mean, it's essential and it really makes all the difference when crisis does hit.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: So what are some of the best ways to manage through a crisis in your mind?
[00:09:55] Speaker A: You know, honestly, allowing the space to grieve, you know, if that's for you personally as the one in crisis, whatever that crisis might be. Right. There's likely some type of grief associated because also grief happens outside of death, outside of losing a loved one. Grief happens in, in so many ways. It's attached to crisis. And so allowing yourself this space to tend to the grief, because grief doesn't go anywhere, grief, grief will wait for you.
So whether you tend to it immediately in, in those early days or not, it's going to, it's going to catch us. Allowing the space for that, you know, again, as a leader, as a manager, allowing your employees the space for that, it just, it matters so much. Having, having resources, you know, that that may mean therapy, it may mean peer to peer support.
There's a lot of different types of resources out there, but I think that's really just the biggest thing is the time and the space to be able to tend to the crisis.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: I love when you said allowing space to grieve. So I think we need to have the space, but we also have to allow others to have that space as well. Because if we don't, then we're kind of not being fair. Right. It's like you're, you know, it's okay for us to grieve, but we can't, we can't let others grieve. We have to give, allow them the space because it's going to be different for everybody. And I think we're going to continuously grieve. And I think we change as individuals when we deal with, with situations like that.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. You do change. You know, I mean, again, crisis. Crisis can mean so many things. Crisis could mean a divorce. Right. That, that's, that's grief. That's change. That's, that's a lot to tend to. Crisis can mean, again, so many things outside of just the death of a loved one. And you can, you can push it down, you can try to push through, which unfortunately is, is a bit of what our society suggests we should do.
When will you be back to normal, back to yourself? Right. But again, you're gonna change. You'll still be you, but it's gonna be a different version. And you. It doesn't flip like a switch. It takes some time.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: It certainly does. So do you think leaders understand the importance of maintaining composure during a crisis situation?
[00:12:33] Speaker A: A lot of leaders do, but I do think that's a real loaded question because there's so many factors in there. Right. You can have a leader that understands, but perhaps the corporate policy doesn't really allow. Right. That's, that's a big part of the scenario. You know, it really goes as deep into that, unfortunately, there's, there can be a lack of availability for time off in a crisis to have that space.
So you can have a leader who understands. But if corporate policy doesn't support that, if the workplace culture doesn't support that, that can be really challenging for everybody involved. Right. So I do think that there's a lot of leaders out there and it's just the, it's really the balancing of, you know, staying calm, showing that empathy while, you know, not judging, not trying to find fix and, and not being emotionally detached, you know, through that, like compassion fatigue can be a thing depending on your line of work. But I think there's a. Plenty of leaders out there. I also think there's a lot of room for, for growth.
A lot of room for growth. But again, it might go deeper than just the leaders. It might be a little more systemic.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. And I think we have to understand too, that there's a time where we can fix it and there's a time where we can't fix it and we just have to be there to list, be supportive. So I think that's an understanding there too. We, we're not gonna be able to fix everything, right?
[00:14:07] Speaker A: No, absolutely not. But, you know, I, I really do. I, I think that, you know, again, allowing the time and the space for a person to tend to their crisis is really the most essential thing. And, you know, there's unfortunately a lot of stories that I have heard from people of not being granted the time off that they need to do that. You know, I can speak very directly to this scenario of, you know, expectant family, you know, have a baby on the way, and you get a certain amount of time off after baby is born.
Unfortunately, if, if that baby is not born alive, if you don't bring your child home, often a majority of policies shorten that time off.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: You get less time as both the birthing individual and the partner. And, you know, it's a, it's a little backwards. You know, you still need that time. And so, yeah, I just, yeah, it's the time. The time. Tend to the grief.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: We. We can't just walk it off. It's not like we, we sprained our ankle and if we walk it off and loosen it up, it's going to feel better. It's something that takes a little bit of time to, to understand. And so again, some people are going to be different than others.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: No, absolutely. That's exactly it. There's a huge component of this is acknowledging and recognizing that crisis is felt and experienced and dealt with uniquely by every individual. Everyone comes into the situation with their own circumstances, their own background, culture, beliefs, traumas, support systems. So there is no two crisis situations that are going to be experienced the same.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: No, there's not, for sure. So in a crisis situation, how critical is inclusive leadership?
[00:16:02] Speaker A: I mean, it's critical. It's absolutely critical because of exactly what I just said, that it doesn't impact everybody the same way. Having leadership that understands there are differences, who are ready to accommodate what those differences look like for individuals, that creates an environment where people are going to feel safe, they're going to feel more understood.
You know, you, you can't, you know, you need that for your employees. Right. Because the expectation too, of, of returning to work.
Yeah. You can't expect them to perform in their job. Right. If they aren't feeling safe, if they aren't feeling understood, it's going to impact their abilities and capacities.
So it's so important to demonstrate this inclusive leadership and understanding of an employee as an individual.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: We have to understand too, that, you know, I call it the Sunday Scaries. There's A lot of people who don't like to, they worry on Sunday night because they're like, I got to go back to work or I got to go back to that place on Monday. And they dread it. And this situation is very similar to that because it could be a situation where they haven't been to work for a while because of a situation, like you said, welcoming a child and then all of a sudden the child, they're not bringing a child home and then they got to go to work. So they're kind of fearful or wondering how things are going to be when they get back to the office and how are people going to react to them and how are people going to treat them. It's very, very scary for people to, to have that. So if you're nervous, you're not going to be looking forward to going back there because it's the unexpected.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Yes. And, and, and this is exactly that communication component that you mentioned earlier. Right. This is where these conversations need to be happening between leadership and person in crisis. Right. You know, where are you at? How are you feeling? What are your concerns in returning and helping them navigate that return? What does that look like? What do they need? Again, in an individualized manner? Because for some, they may feel most comfortable coming back into the workplace if their team, their co workers, whatever that looks like, they're, they've been updated on the situation in the know what's going on. For others, they may not want everybody to know what's going on. That's that communication aspect. Have the conversation. How can I make your return to work easing in transition easiest, smoothest, and feel most aligned with your needs.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Most companies will have a confidentiality act. So I get what you're saying that you don't want people to know, but you're going to get those people that are going to ask you, like, is everything okay? What happened? I'm here to talk to you. You can, you can tell me if you want, but if you're not comfortable, that's okay. But you're going to have to answer that thing probably like, you know, 10, 15, 20 times if you are. And it's kind of rough if you have to talk about that stuff over and over again. Well, yeah, it can be very, very, very rough.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, this looks obviously so different compared to, right. The, the specifics of, of, of the company, of, you know, the size of the team.
And that, that is why that, that conversation matters so much, much if, if this is an individual who is, you know, leading a Team themselves of, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 people. Right. Being asked that question that many times is. Is not going to be good unless they are okay with that. Right? Unless they rather just roll with it and let that be.
Because that might feel okay for some to, you know, just take the risk, see who asks how it goes. But a conversation around that can really make the difference in a person feeling capable of re entering their position and being their best self.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So in closing, what is one takeaway that you'd like our audience to get from this episode?
[00:20:27] Speaker A: I would say it is that grief needs to be witnessed. Grief needs to be witnessed. It is when we do not feel seen that the grief lingers, that we push on before we're ready. And that just inhibits us functioning at the best capacity we can when, when we're not feeling like we're being seen and met where we're at again. I mean, you can take pretty much any example of crisis and most likely there's going to be some type of grief attached to that.
So, you know, if you know someone in crisis, whatever that looks like, just sit with them with that. Don't judge, don't suggest they are grieving poorly. No matter how someone is grieving, they are grieving. Right. For them, it's putting the judgments and expectations on it that does damage. So just witness someone where they are in their crisis, in their grief, and let them know that you're there.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: We should never tell anybody how they should feel.
That is something that I go on and something that I talk about a lot. Don't tell me how I should feel and I will never tell you how you should feel. And if we can do that and we can respect each other, then I think things are going to be so much better than when we assume and we tell people, oh, well, that's not right. You shouldn't think like that. You feel like that.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: It's. It's not right. And I. It's something that I firmly, firmly and strongly believe.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Right. And because how can you tell someone that? Right. Like we discussed, everybody's experience is going to be unique. You can take the same type of crisis, but it will be experienced differently by every single person. So can anyone know how someone should feel? Not them.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Exactly. I'd like to remind everybody who's listening to, like, share and follow this episode. And I want to take the time to thank you, Ashley, for coming on today. I just admire your grit and your strength. You're an admirable individual and you're just so welcoming and pleasant and kind. So I appreciate you and I appreciate you taking the time to come on and chat with us today.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the space to have this conversation. It's one that I do feel a lot of people shy away from, you know, and so I appreciate you hanging in here and having this conversation that I really do believe is an important, important one. So thank you.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: You are super welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest Ashley, I'd like to take the time to thank you for listening today. And until next time, be safe, everyone. And remember that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you have been listening to.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Let's Be Diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, Hit Subscribe.
