Dry Promotions

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today our topic is dry promotions. What is that, you ask? Well, we're going to talk about it today. My guest today is Norm Tam. Welcome, Norm. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, glad to be here, Andrew. [00:00:38] Speaker B: It's great to have you here. How are things with you? What's going on in your world? What's happening? What's the deets, the tea? Give us it all. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, things are good, man. Things are good. They're busy. Heading off to LA next week. Conference with about over 400 people. Yeah, it's going to be the biggest conference I'm giving next week. Oh, wow. Still trying to play a little golf here and there, so. Trying to keep the work balance in my life, but yeah, things, things are good, man. Can't complain. Very grateful. [00:01:11] Speaker B: No, you it. Sometimes people do complain. Not many people listen. Right. So at least this way. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad to hear that things are going good. I'm glad to hear that. La, that's gonna be a nice trip. I was just talking to my wife the other day and just looking at the Olympics they're coming up in, in 2028 and think that's going to be a super. Whoever makes that trip. I think that's going to be a trip of a lifetime for anybody that's. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Seeing that difference between the, the Paris Olympics and the LA ones. You know, things up. I was like, oh yeah, it's going to be a little bit of a different feel. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Oh yeah, it's going to be a party. It's going to be a party for sure. For sure. So before we begin, before we begin or get into the net and bolt of this topic today, I always have a fun, fun thought provoking question from my guest to get things going. Are you ready for yours today, Norm? [00:02:03] Speaker A: Bring it on. [00:02:05] Speaker B: My question today is how would you describe your communication style in three words? [00:02:12] Speaker A: Communication style in three words. Okay, that's a good question. Listening, direct and relevant. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's three key, three key components to a good leader, that's for sure. I like to like those three. That's awesome. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't like to skirt around topics too much and if you're going to talk about something, let's, let's get into the meat of things and let's not shy away from the topics. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Well, I like your answers. Let's get started here. What is this new trend called dry promotions? [00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, so as we were just talking about it earlier, Andrew, when we just connected when you sent me over that topic today, you know, a of a suggestion of what the topic was. I actually didn't know what drive promotions like the label of it was. I actually had to go Google and chat GPT it. But as soon as I saw that, you know, it's giving others more responsibility without, you know, the financial compensation, I was like, okay, I've seen a lot of this in my career. So we're just kind of labeling it now. But yeah, I think, you know, what is a drive promotion, it's literally asking someone, employee of your organization to step up, do more, have more responsibility without the pay, without the increase in salary, without the increase in compensation. It's a little bit like, you know, show me no money but do the work. You know, do the additional work that we're asking. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one ear is when you mentioned it. Yes. It's something that, that just caught my eye a couple of weeks ago and I thought this is an interesting topic. And then like you said, when I read it, I kind of like, okay, yes, like you, I, I, I've seen it. It's happened throughout my career for sure. And it was just a label like we were discussing before we started taping and super interesting and, and, and new. So maybe it's something that companies are going to be looking into more. Who knows what do you, what are the, what are the advantages of a dry promotion? [00:04:42] Speaker A: I think, you know, we got to break that, that question we probably have to break down from the different viewpoints, right? From the employee or staff member receiving one, are there advantages and you know, the actual organization company, are there advantages there? So let's start with the employee side. You know, instinctively you would kind of look at that and say, well, I don't think there is any advantage here. You know, I'm going to be asked to do that much more work, give that much more of a commitment, potentially put in more hours. Right. Have more accountability, have more people that I'm responsible for, but not get compensated for it. So I think on the initial kind of, let's be honest, it sucks if you, but I actually think there are some hidden advantages. If you dig a little Bit, but it's all dependent on the situation. So, you know, if you know that truly within your organization, this dry promotion is coming out of, you know, real dire circumstance, you know, budget constraints, a reality within your organization. Maybe it's a startup that just doesn't have the capital to, you know, at the moment, but needs everyone to dig deep and move forward. Hey, that might work. You know, that might be a good thing to kind of take on that responsibility and, you know, have more people that you're accountable to because it may mean that later down the line when that financial situation reverses, well, guess what, you know, you're sitting and you've proved yourself to have that much more value within the company. You're already a hell of a lot more experienced by that point, right? And you've added a whole bunch of skills and, you know, and wins under your belt. Right? So I think there is kind of that hidden advantage for sure, right. That could come around, like I said, depending on circumstance. If you actually are within an organization, though, that, you know, preaches that they're doing well year in and year out, and you see the growth and you see that things are moving forward and you kind of get this weird proposition made to you where you see that others are, you know, flourishing within your organization, you know, that's kind of where I think it might be a bit of a warning sign that, you know, there may be a little trip coming up someone's sleeve at that point. So, like I said, it comes down to really, you know, if you're on the employee side, really reading the terrain, I think, right? Where is this coming from? And do I believe what is being presented to me from the company side, the organization side? I mean, I can't really think of, you know, any other advantage except saving money. I think it comes down to that. I mean, there is no real other advantage. I mean, you're gonna. You're gonna give the person the responsibility anyways, whether you're gonna pay them or not. So with the dry promotion, the only advantage that exists is just not, you know, like, you know, not putting the money where your mouth is. [00:07:55] Speaker B: I love when you said you're talking about staff members when you said, you know, maybe taking it on. So I could definitely see people, some people kind of frowning away from it and saying, well, why would I want to take that? It's, you know, more responsibility and, and I'm not getting any pay raise. However, in some cases, not all, but in some cases it might be an opportunity, like you said, for you to show yourself. And, you know, down the road, you know, because a lot of people are trying to get themselves out there and they're wanting to, you know, a lot of people will say, you know, if you ask a lot of questions and if you're curious and you want to learn more stuff, you want to show that you want to learn, then down the road it could be advantage. So in those cases, I definitely see that. But you're absolutely right. For an organization, the only thing I would see as well is saving. Saving. Saving money for sure. Because. Yeah, they're not having to pay out a salary and, you know, and other than that, or other than getting a consulting firm to come in and do that work, that's pretty much what you're doing, is you're saving money. [00:09:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And like I said before, Andrew, I'm not, I'm. I'm not advocating that. It's all the time, you know, trickery and, you know, corporate, you know, sleazy. Not at all. Like I said, the situations may be truly genuine. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Budgets, it's just not there. The company is trying to grow on, you know, unlimited resources. And if that's the case, then, like I said, it's a whole different circumstance. Right. I mean, it has to be kind of considered totally different. I did kind of think of another advantage, I guess, as we're talking. I mean, there is an advantage of. Even if, you know that, you know, the intent behind this drag promotion is not truly genuine as an employee, you will be getting more experience, and you will be able to take that experience, if you liked to shop that around to a future employer and, you know, perhaps increase your salary, you know, at that stage, that is another advantage. It's almost kind of saying, well, listen, I know I'm kind of getting screwed here, but you know what? I'll play the game. I'll get experience. I'll put the title under my belt, and because I got screwed. Well, I'll just, you know, shop around one day when it's time to leave. I mean. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Basically, there is that. That advantage as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker B: It makes you look like, you know, sometimes in some cases, and like you said, not all, but in some cases, it makes you look like a good. A good employee because you're. You're willing to help out and, you know, help them out in a situation, like you said, that might be genuine and, and, and they might be stuck. So how do we. So I could see some situations where people just don't want it. So how do. How does someone Turn down a dry promotion. [00:10:57] Speaker A: How does someone say no in the right way? Basically? [00:11:00] Speaker B: Right, yeah, yeah. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Ultimately going to be no. Right, right. Yeah. So this was, this was a, this is a little bit of a trickier one now because now we're going to start bringing in all the notions of like company politics and. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:14] Speaker A: You know, how you want your personal branding to be perceived, how you want your career to be perceived within your organization. This is tricky. Right, right. It has to be kind of well thought out for sure. Again, I think it comes down to circumstance, you know, if you are in an organization and for whatever reason, you know that your time is limited, meaning that the culture, the values of their organization are not really, you know, your thing. Maybe you had to take on that job in the interim just to kind of, you know, patch things together a little bit temporarily. If you're in that situation, you might just decide to say, well, flat out, no, like I'm not interested in this because you know that it's going to take more time. And you kind of knew that. Well, you know what, the timeline here is limited anyways. So it looks like, you know, I wasn't really striving to move forward in the organization anyways. Push comes to shove now I'm going to have to just say no because I just don't want that additional work. Right. That's maybe the easier situation. If the other situation, the more complicated one is, well, maybe you do enjoy it. Maybe you do, you know, like being in that organization and you do see a longer term career path. You know, now something presents itself that's out of your hands. Right. Your management is basically saying, hey, we see you as being a potential individual that has managerial competency or sorry, I'm using managerial, but it could be supervisory or even, you know, more responsibility in a non managerial role. That one's a little trickier now because now you got to think of your career. Now you got to think of the politics. If I say no to this, is this something that's going to scar me basically for life? You know, let's, let's not be, you know, let's not live in la di da line. This is an actual threat that you have to, you do have to think about because is very present. Right. I've seen a lot of instances where leadership almost gets insulted that, you know, this opportunity is not being taken on for this individual and they just move on. Next, who's a, who's a better fit. So saying no to that one, like I said, you really have to consider the Pros and cons at that point. Right. It may actually be, and I'm going to, you know, turn this into, you may want to even say yes to it. Right. If you do see a longer term future within the organization. But make sure that that discussion is clear between yourself and your manager. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:14:11] Speaker A: Make sure that you are at least transparent with all of your concerns. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Make sure that maybe it's no money for now, but like, can we look at a review of this 6 months from now, 12 months from now? Because it kind of sounds reasonable that if you are doing that, that bigger role that you need to be compensated for it. So not a, not a black and white one when it comes to actually, you know, if you do want to, you know, if you do see a career in that company, that's probably the toughest situation. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it is a tough situation for sure. I definitely agree with you as far as the communication factor. Definitely asking a lot of questions and, and getting a clear understanding of what you're expected to do in that role. What is the time constraints that is expected of that role on top of what the other jobs that you have to do is probably something that I would definitely check out as well. And you're absolutely right. When you're, you know, and you know, sometimes you're kind of stuck in a rock and a hard place and that when you almost, sometimes in some cases you almost have to have to take it because if you do have any expectations of future movement in, within the company, you don't want to have any negative talk about you, you know, oh, some, you know, so, and so doesn't wanna, doesn't like to work or whatever. I mean, we don't want to get to a situation where we're overloaded with work and we end up suffering burnout. However, you know, I think having a conversation, like I said, with the, with the manager or supervisor or whoever it is and, and talking about it and, and getting a clear understanding. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:03] Speaker B: Will probably make it a lot easier. [00:16:05] Speaker A: That that's usually, I think that's such a great point there, Andrew. I mean, that's usually where a lot of the stress, the anxiety, the sleepless nights occur when there's just lack of clarity. Right. When there's just a lack of common understanding of like where are we headed with this? Right, right. So I, I, you know, suggestion for the, on the, on the, you know, the individual who has to consider whether or not they want to, you know, take that dry promotion is make sure your points are out and transparent. You make sure you've. You've spoken your mind and you're at peace saying, listen, I put my concerns on the table. I did my part. At least I could sleep at night knowing, knowing that, you know, I was transparent about it. I think that's a big part of it. I mean, the, the, like I said, the stress usually comes from. I, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't speak and I didn't say that this. Me. I just rushed ahead and kind of accepted it. And now feeling like, well, I'm stuck. And, you know, my, my manager or my supervisor doesn't even know where I stand with this. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:15] Speaker A: That's where all of that kind of like ugly, gray stuff. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I could definitely see somebody, like you said, stuck, and they could definitely start doing it and then realizing after, like, oh, this is gonna take me way more time, or I didn't know that this was gonna, you know, entail this part of it or, you know, and so, yeah, and then you're, then you're. Then you've already committed to it. So to go back and say, oh, this is, you know, now that I've done this for a few days, it's really not for me. You know, now you're talking about another ball of. Or chain of information, and it's, It's a different situation for sure. [00:17:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:17:59] Speaker B: So do you think that dry promotions are going to become more relevant in organizations in the future? [00:18:08] Speaker A: Listen, I mean, you know, the fact that you and I both agree that, you know, this has probably been going on for a while, and now we just kind of, you know, label. Found the marketing term for it and to stick the label on it. I think, like, most of these trends. Yeah, there might be a little bit of a, kind of a surge of this because again, simply from a marketing aspect and HR leaders or, you know, business unit leaders hearing about this and saying, oh, yeah, this is great, let me, Let me apply this for my team right now. So, yeah, I think for sure there's going to be a little bit of that. It's like, comes with any type of buzz. But ultimately, I mean, my personal opinion is I just don't think it's good practice. I think there's more bad than good that can come from this. And it comes down to just the core principles of recognizing people's value. Right. And ensuring that you're demonstrating that sense of worth. Yeah, that's. That's all it comes down to. You know, it's, you know, similarly into relationships. You know, I, I Know what? How the conversation would have sounded like to my wife if I said, hey, listen, let's get married. I really want to be long term with you. I really want this thing to work. But there's no ring, though. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:34] Speaker A: You know, like. Sure, you could say that. Sure, sure. You could go ahead and propose that. Sure. It kind of makes sense because we're more or less in this already. Right, right, right. It's just not good practice, you know, it's like you're just not gonna set yourself up for people feeling good on both sides, you know, and that's. And honestly, I think that's really what it comes down to. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah, right. I, I love your story and I love your comparison to it. That makes total sense. And I do think, you know, you know, we talk, you know, companies and organizations and people are talking a lot about engagement. And if you want engagement, I agree with that. Is this. It's not the best practice, because people will remember that. And. Yeah, and. And, you know, and that's this. This is where recruit. This is where recruiters will come in. Because if you're a contact, if you're a recruiter and you're contacting somebody and, you know, through the network and saying, hey, you know, I noticed that you have experience in this. I have this position that you might be interested in. Are you interested in chatting? Well, if this comes up, you're going to be 100% willing to listen to what they have. If you're engaged, you're going to tell that company, saying, listen, thank you so much for the opportunity. However, I'm really happy. I like the values and the mission and vision of the company. So I'm going to stay where I am. So this is an. For me, this is an engagement thing here. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:02] Speaker B: And you're just turning the tables of your. At your desk, of that one desk, there's so many people that are coming, going, you know, it's like a restaurant trying to turn tables over. You're. You're just turning tables of people trying to come in and do that job. [00:21:20] Speaker A: So I, I think there's a big risk for the employer to, to kind of, you know, keep engaging in this type of practice. You know, just. Just to use some simple math, you know, if, If I mean, giving a token, you know, salary increase, just saying, you know what? I'm gonna just throw some theoretical numbers here. You know, the individual is making, you know, $80,000 a year, throwing out a token. Right. Increase of, you know, $6,000. I mean, what company cannot afford $500 a month if they're really gonna be giving that employee that much more responsibility than the board. Right. By denying that, you're actually saying to, you know, the people of your organization, you are not worth $500 a month additional for the, for all of the work we're asking you to do. Not only is that, you know, horrible for engagement for the individual that you're talking to, but let's face it, work gets around. Right. You know, people talk, water cooler cafeteria chats. This kind of starts to spread around the company saying, you know what? I'm not, I'm not worth 500amonth extra. Right. For everything else that I'm being asked to do. So I just don't think it's a good practice. You know, if you're gonna ask people to do more and contribute more and ultimately deliver more value for your, your business and company, well, you kind of have to be fair on the other side. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yep. I, I, I feel, I talk a lot about this to, in conversations and also on several episodes of the podcast. And it's being, talking about being seen, heard, valued and understood. And I feel like in this situation, you're not seeing, hearing or valuing the employee. And do they actually see you as a future part of the organization by doing this? It's almost like, say, it's almost like a kick in the teeth to say, you know what, we don't really see you as a future part, but I'm gonna give you this extra work here because we can't afford to, to pay anybody more. So, yeah, it is kind of a shot in the mouth there. [00:23:48] Speaker A: And let's be honest, I mean, from a business owner standpoint or for elite, from a, you know, a leader standpoint organization, I'm going to go back to the most optimal scenario that we said from, from a, you know, employer perspective where there's truly a budget constraint. And like, you know, this is coming from a good place. Let's just say, you know, it's actually right. There's still something additional you can do there. Let's be honest. You know, you could be entrepreneurial and just say, listen, right now the money's not on the table. Right. But we're going to be transparent with you with where that money situation stands 12 months from now. And if, if we're in the green, then let's put it in writing right now, like, we're gonna actually, that's, that's the level of commitment we have to you right now. You can do that as an employee. Right? Right. And that. And that, I think, delivers on exactly what you're saying there before, Andrew. Being seen, being heard and being recognized. Like, wow, okay, that feels a lot better now. You know, like, I actually want to help the company get there. Right. So it's just little things like this that could be, you know, that, that. And it goes back to those notions of transparency and being. Being open and really kind of, you know, digging to find a solution in a time where, you know, money might not be on the table right now, but you're making sure that you're taking care of this individual in the future. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Absolutely. I love that. So what is one takeaway that you want the audience to get from this episode? [00:25:19] Speaker A: One takeaway. It's not cut and dry. I guess that's the. That's the one takeaway. You know, I think, like we were saying before, it's very easy for, you know, if you. If you. If you just kind of read the definition of this. This subject, it sounds like, you know, immediately the person who is receiving this drag promotion is getting screwed. Right. That's the initial kind of emotional reaction. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker A: But as we just kind of covered in our discussion here, it's. It's, you know, things are rarely that black and white. That's the one thing I see all the time working with, you know, my. My clients and working in customer organizations. It's never cut and dry. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:05] Speaker A: Right. Or else, you know, literally you can just put everything on repeat day in and day out. Right. But, you know, HR is one of those. It's the toughest thing sometimes because you're dealing with people. People are unique. People come from different backgrounds, have different stories, and you kind of have to, you know, it's not. One size fits all. Right. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Right, right. I agree with you, 100. When you're. It's. It's one of those situations where you're, you know, you. You have a situation and you hear one side. So in this particular topic, you could hear the employee side of it, and then you could. And whatever they're saying, and there's several points that they could say that you would agree with. And then you could go to the organization side and you could hear several points from them. And there's things that you could say, okay, well, I could see where they're coming from. So you're absolutely right. You're not. It's not a black and white thing. It's a scenario thing. We have to kind of look at it. And an individually based. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, definitely. Like, you know, if I was to Think of this just in terms of what I do. I could definitely picture myself giving both sides of that argument to, you know, my clients. Right. If they're thinking about this. Right. I can. I could see myself saying, yeah, for sure. That makes sense. You know, it's, it's, it's. It's. You're. You're in a bit of a jam right now, but this person is showing promise. Put it out there. Let's see if they're willing to kind of take on a responsibility, but make sure that there's something down the road because you don't want to, you know, ultimately screw this person over. I can see myself suggesting that. And on the other hand, I could see myself suggesting bad idea. Like, you guys are doing pretty well. Right. Why would you want to just go and offer this someone and insult someone and potentially lose a good, you know, team member here? Just because, you know, we want to skim on. On the comp right now. Right. Like, I could. I could. I literally could see myself giving both sides of that suggestion based on the circumstance. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's definitely a situation where, as I think it has to be definitely thought out. It has to be, you know, you're considering it. Like you said, if company came to see you and asked you what your opinion is, you could give them both sides. But it's definitely something that. It. You know, you need to really think things through, think the process out, how you're gonna. What the job is, how you're gonna, you know, how you're gonna get somebody to do it, who you're gonna get to do it, how are they gonna do it? Are they gonna have time to do it, Figure out all the aspects of it, the time, everything, how the conversation is going to go with the employee. Everything has to be thought out. You can't just take a dice and just throw it out there and say, you know, what do you think? And. And that has to definitely be well thought out. If you're. If it's somebody that you are wanting to stay in the organization long term, you definitely have to be. You mentioned earlier, it's a very touchy and careful situation. For sure. [00:29:18] Speaker A: For sure. Yeah, for sure. And be transparent about it. I think that's. That's the. The key thing too, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Time to not dance around the table with vague terms or on both sides. Right. [00:29:34] Speaker B: You're right. [00:29:34] Speaker A: You got to be honest. You got to be straightforward and say, okay, well, this is where we're headed. These are my concerns. This is. This will happen. This Will not happen. Right. What are we willing to put in writing? Like. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:46] Speaker A: All of that has to be thought through. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Any final thoughts today? [00:29:54] Speaker A: No. I mean, listen in about 34 minutes. Andrew, I think we, we covered this one pretty well. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. Yeah, I, I agree with you. 100. I think we covered it pretty well, you know. Yeah, just, I'd say just the, you know, communication factor. I think it's super important and I'm sure you see it in, in organizations that you deal with. I see it a lot, especially seeing it. And I have lots of conversations and the key is communication. And I think, you know, having a strong, sensible, vulnerable conversation with the, with the two parties, I think will, you know, if it's going to be something that's going to work, it's definitely, definitely has to be that way. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Well said for sure. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Listen, Nor, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. You know, we've been kind of battling back and forth to try to get this on the books here, and it was great to have you on today. Such a great discussion. I think it's going to be something that our listeners are going to definitely enjoy. So thank you so much for your time today. You are a superstar and I, I really appreciate you. [00:31:01] Speaker A: My pleasure, Andrew. Love to chat, man. [00:31:04] Speaker B: I'm wonderful. On behalf of myself and my guest Norm, I'd like to thank you all for listening today. Until next time, be safe. And remember, everybody, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything. You have been listening to. Let's be Diverse with Andrew Stout to. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Stay up to date with future content. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Hit Subscribe.