Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: They do not necessarily reflect the views.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Of this streaming platform.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Have you ever gone or been at a job or been in a position where you just felt like you were, you were just. Sometimes you think you're too good for a job or we'll use the word overqualified. Well, our topic today is being overqualified. And I am so happy to have as my guest today Amy Gindon. Welcome to the show, Amy. I am so honored and privileged and happy that you took the time to chat with us today.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Oh, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: It's nice to have you. How are things with you, Amy? What's new? What's going on? Give us the tea, the deets, give us it all. Tell us what's happening.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Things are good. I'm balancing running a coaching business and picking up my 7 year old son at 3 o'clock every day and putting on the mom hat. So it's, it's been great to navigate all of that and I'm just really happy to be in the position that I'm in right now.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: It kind of gives you a little bit of flexibility to, to do everything. And I was just talking to somebody today and we're talking about, I'm a firm believer in different types of leadership and I talk a lot about parent leadership as I feel like parents are leaders and you know, because we're, you know, parents are helping and are molding, trying to mold our kids to, to be the individuals that they want them to be as they grow up. So it's, you know, we have that, you have that job all day and then the job, you know, as parents, it doesn't end. You still have that job when you, when you go home. So it's, it's pretty cool that, you know, they're, you know, kids I find, or they just take in so much information and, and so much stuff. So it's amazing. Some of the things that comes, come out of their mouths at times. Right.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: So yeah, for sure.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: They definitely surprise me sometimes. Well, I'm glad to hear that things are going well and I see posts and stuff like that are going super awesome for you work wise and, and house and home wise. And so I'm, I'm super happy to, to hear that things are going well for you. Before we begin, I always find I always have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guest to get things going. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:02:39] Speaker A: I'm ready.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: So my question to you is if you could experience one year from your life again, which year would that be and why?
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Oh, that's a great question.
I would experience the year before my son was born again is the year that I got married. It was the year that I went to Europe for the first time and it was this great hybrid of like having enough money to have fun and not having a family so that I have the freedom to really enjoy it. And I will say I savored that year because I knew that I wanted to have kids and that my life would change. But it was a, it was just an awesome year.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: That sounds like a very cool year. Getting married, going to Europe, that is, I would say those are two pretty cool things for sure.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Getting to see family you don't normally get to see, I mean weddings and funerals. Right. It's a great time to catch up with folks.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Yes. One is, is a, is a fun time. The other one is probably not the best, but circumstances. But yes, it is definitely an opportunity to see those loved ones that you don't usually get to see too often and you get to catch up with them. And it's both, I'd say it's both reminiscing. So you're reminiscing in both occasions. So it's pretty, it's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Well, I appreciate you having fun with me. You're pretty quick on that. So not knowing what the question was. I'm super impressed that you came out with an answer so quickly. So thanks for, thanks for having fun with me.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Hey, no problem.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: So why don't we start off with you telling us a little about you yourself and of course your. Why?
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Sure.
Well, I'm a multi time career changer. My first career was as a mental health counselor. I worked in schools, I worked in hospitals, specifically emergency rooms. I worked in crisis centers and kind of burnt out on that because I was working with some pretty severely mentally ill folks who, you know, needed to be hospitalized and had a lot of challenges.
And so then my second career was in marketing which seems completely random and unrelated, but I like to think of marketing as the psychology for business.
So I was still thinking about human behavior and what makes people do what they do and engage, but it was in a context that wasn't so dramatic.
And so I went into marketing and worked my way up from unpaid marketing intern to CMO of a public company over a 13 year span.
And then when I got to the very tippy top of the corporate ladder, I realized that I was miserable and I wasn't getting to do any of the things that energized me in marketing. I was just hiring and firing and negotiating and setting boundaries and managing a budget. And I just thought, you know, I need to do something else with my life.
And I left that job thinking that I was going to start a business as a public speaker and an author. But the universe had different plans for me. And I had an old colleague reach out to me and say, hey, will you coach me? And I thought, coach you? Why would I do something like that?
And he said, well, you were a therapist and you were an executive. Sounds like you'd make a great executive coach. And I was like, wow, well, thanks for figuring out my whole unique value proposition.
And so I was very transparent with him and said, well, I guess we can give it a shot, I don't know. And it ended up turning into an entire coaching business. I'm coaching leaders and executives, I'm coaching individual contributors at corporations, I'm coaching career changers, I'm coaching folks in crisis.
And it's been really rewarding, I think, for me. Getting to work with high functioning individuals who just need to uncover their why and redesign their life is my why.
And so it's been a unsus, you know, unimaginable ride. But I'm loving it.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: So, so listen, you know, first thing I want to mention is we talked about leadership before and how important that it was. And I, I think the reason why that person reached out to you originally is because they saw you as a leader and they wanted to learn from you and they knew that they couldn't be full on Amy, but they wanted to learn a little bit of how you think and how you do things and how you, how you communicate with people. And I, I really feel like they, they saw that in you and that's why they reached out and good for them. Because I'm a firm believer that when you are a leader, you have to understand the things that you're good at and the things that you're not and the things that you're not good at. Then it's okay to ask for help or ask assistance or ask for advice or ask somebody's opinion. It's okay to do that. So he did that, which I admire tremendously because that just means that they, they saw, they saw something special in you and they wanted to, to learn from you. So that, that's the first thing I wanted to, to, to come back on. And the other thing I love that you said is, is psych. That marketing is a psycho psychology for business. And it is so true. And especially today, just in everything that businesses or organizations do, it, you know, when they're coming into marketing, it all ties in and what you, you know, you're looking at what you're wanting to say or what kind of things or what kind of business you want to be or how you want to come across and the littlest thing could make it turn to, you know, a negative or you know, some people reading something and saying, oh my God, I can't believe they said that, or I can't believe they wrote that. So it's just so vital today that, and even people, you know, someone that's a leader that might be reading something, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I like this. Maybe we should change it to this. And so it is interesting that you've said that. I kind of thought about it that way, but I didn't. When he said it, psychology of business, it really made me, it really resonated with me, for sure.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah. I mean that's, for me, that was one of the only reasons I went into it is because I so fascinated by people and I'm fascinated by what moves people to take action in their lives. And I think that even though my career seems a little disjointed, there is that common thread throughout.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's so interesting, like I said, how people think. So let's get into the meat and bones of this. So again we're talking about being overqualified in your opinion because I've seen you talk about this often.
What does it mean to be overqualified in your opinion?
[00:10:50] Speaker A: I think that anytime a person accepts a job that is, that is less than the experience, the education, the skills or the expertise that they have, then they are accepting a job that they are overqualified for.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Okay, and so you're saying less, less than experience, this, you know, less experience, you know, skills and experience. So I, I get that. I understand that.
Do you like, people react a little bit different when they are over qualified? Because I've seen some topics that you've talked about it and I think is, you know, some people will act, I guess depending on their personality or how should I say this, so somebody that is humble may act A little bit differently in an, in a, being in a job that you're overqualified for rather than somebody who thinks super highly of themselves and takes an overquality. Said, okay, well, I'm going to take this job even though I feel like I'm overqualified, but I'm going to, you know, I'm going to have this company wrapped around my finger because I just know so much.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Right, yeah. You know, and maybe we'll get into this, but I think that we automatically think that taking a job that you're overqualified for is a negative.
But for me, I always go back to what are my values and what do I want out of my life and how does my career fit into that? And there are chapters in our lives where work can come first and then there are chapters in our lives where our kids or our parents or our loved ones come first. And so there are certainly cases where someone takes a job that they are overqualified for and they are resentful, they're underpaid, maybe they're arrogant, they are really not doing themselves any favors by being there. And then there are cases where people take a job that they're overqualified for because they need something easy right now in their lives because the other things going on around them are so hard, then they can't possibly be in a growth stage in their careers.
So I think it depends on the person and I think it depends on their values and why they took the job.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: So that's a great segue going into the next thought or question.
How does someone adopt or how someone adapt to being overqualified?
[00:13:55] Speaker A: How does someone adapt? So how do they, how do they become successful in a job where they're over qualified?
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so how do. So if they are in a position where they, to take a job, like you said, they, and like I'll take this job even though I think it's, I'm over qualified, I, I'll take it. But how do they.
So like I mentioned before, they might, you know, depending on the personality, some might be humble, some might not be, but you still have to kind of adapt to that situation. So, so how do we, how do we adapt? Or have you seen people having to adapt in that type of situation?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I worked with someone who reported to me who was definitely overqualified and we had some, you know, very transparent conversations in the interview process that, you know this title, the salary is less than where you should be. Are you actually okay with that? And are you looking for a path to get to where you should be, or is this really what you want? And so I think that if you're going to accept a job where you're overqualified and you are at risk of developing resentment around that, you need to have a transparent conversation with your manager around what your path to growth looks like. Because if you don't, then you will sit in resentment and that will inevitably turn into arrogance or turnover or, you know, anything. And as a manager, you should be worried that that person might not stick around very long because they're not getting paid what they're worth. And maybe they took the job because they needed the money in the interim until they got a job that was something that matched their skill set a little bit better. So I think that as much as the manager and the employee can have transparency up front, front about what that employee is truly looking for, the better. But I've definitely worked with individuals who've said, you know, I worked with someone in sales. He was an SVP of sales. He managed a huge team, and he was older in his career, and he said, you know what? I really just miss doing the sales, and I don't, I don't want to manage people anymore. I really just want to do the work that energizes me, and I'm okay with the pay cut and I'm okay with a lower title because this is what I want. And so it really comes down to a conversation about what someone really wants.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: I love the communication factor you're talking about because you could, I could see a scenario where, like, you're saying somebody takes a job or they go to the interview and they're like, okay, well, let me go check this out. It might, I might be overqualified for it. And they do the interview and they talk with the, the, the manager or the person doing the interviewing, and they ask about the job and the culture and what, you know, what the job entails, what the company's like. And, you know, and a lot of people I think, would like to, you know, probably want to hear, well, listen, you know, I'm really, you know, they may not hear it in the interview, but maybe in the offer, you know, with them, the person saying, listen, or the manager saying, listen, I looked at your, your, your resume. You did a great interview. We'd be interested in having you. You know, I know that this might not be. You might be a little bit overqualified for this position. However, we definitely see you as an asset to this company in the future, and we definitely see you growing within the company. And we definitely could see, we could definitely develop some plans to help you to, to grow within the company. So you're with us for a long time. So somebody, if I know, if myself, if I heard that I'm, I would, might be, I'd be inclined to say, well, listen, they see me long term, you don't see me short term. So I'll, I'll take the chance and I'll do it and I'll ask questions and do everything that I can in order to move and show them that I'm willing and able to move forward.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think culture is a big thing.
Having good energy, positive energy with your potential manager is another thing. People will stay at companies for a very long time, even if they're a bit underpaid, if they really enjoy the people with whom they work and they have a really solid relationship with their manager. So that is a value add that you can't necessarily put a dollar sign on.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. They say to people necessarily when they leave a job, it's not because, not necessarily because they don't like the job. It's usually because of poor, poor management. So you hit it right in the button in there. So whether you're over, it's not because they're not leaving because they're overqualified or leave because, you know, they don't like, you know, did something about the manager, they're not getting along or whatever for whatever reason.
So you we kind of talked about a little bit, but I kind of want to go in a little bit in more in depth of this.
Is it better to be over qualified or under qualified?
[00:19:43] Speaker A: My answer is it depends on what your career goals are.
So if you, like I had started to mention before, if you really need something easy in your life right now because you've got a lot of hard things going on for you personally, then something that, you know, doesn't take you more than the allotted amount of time to do something that is a low stress, something that is familiar, could actually be really great for your mental health as you're managing stressful personal, you know, relationships or what have you.
I think being under qualified is certainly on the opposite end, a great opportunity for growth.
I was actually coaching someone right before this call who was trying to figure out if she should go for a role that she knows that she's not qualified for and what are the pros and cons of that. And we talked a lot about what her values are and she knows that this role would require 12 to 14 hour long days. It would require her kids to be with babysitters a lot more often. It would be a lot of personal sacrifice and it would be a lot more money. And so it's kind of like weighing and prioritizing what your biggest values are when deciding, you know, do I take a job that, that is a bit above me or potentially below me.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: When you said depends on career goals, I, I totally get what you're saying because yeah, you want to know, like you said, what the future holds, what your plans are. We all have different plans on our plans. I'm finding that plans are changing for people more than they were, were years ago. Like they, people change and people are adapting or they're, they're doing something different because like you said, they just don't like what they're doing. They're not happy. So they'll do something, you know, different because for, for whatever reason it is, whether it's schedule like you said, whether it's mental health, whatever it is.
But I do like also too, the growth factor. And I do like the fact that you, you know, you talk about underqualified. I was talking to somebody this past week and they were telling me that they were considering applying for a job just like your client they're working for and they weren't sure what to do. And I always tell people that if you, you know, yeah, I would look at the job, I would look and see the job posting and I would look and see what they're looking for. And there's always transferable skills that you can take from one job to the next. So there you might not have everything, but you're gonna have some things and the company might take you because you have those, those certain things. And I know that a lot more companies are looking at a lot of soft skills. You know, they're looking at the hard skills, but they're looking at soft skills. Soft skills are very important to a lot of companies because they're looking to have that perfect fit or somebody that's, you know, already have a team and they're looking to put someone on a team. They're looking to have that person that they can put in and there's going to be no issues that they're going to fit right into the team and the morale and everything is going to, is going to continue to run as it would or as it should. So I love your different comparisons. They totally make sense for me. For sure.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you're never starting fresh, right? We all have life experiences that we can position and you know, depending on the job, it's an easier or a harder sell. If you're applying to be a physician and you don't have a medical degree, that is a harder sell than if you're going for senior director and you've been a manager.
So I totally agree with you about the transferable skills. I think we definitely sell ourselves short a lot and we don't necessarily know or make the connection that we actually have done that work before. It's just looked a little bit different.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: I mean, just yourself, Amy, you were, I mean you've gone from marketing to coaching. I, I can, I can assure you that you probably looked at the different things that marketing and coaching and I'm sure that you've noticed several transferable skills that you have used in your coaching business that you learned from marketing. I, I can, I'm, I'm almost positive on that.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean both jobs, and I would say almost all jobs require exceptional communication skills.
So that off the bat right there and then I think, you know, a curiosity to learn and understand the person you're working with so that what you share resonates. I mean that's marketing and that's coaching right there.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Yep. And there's that rapport part too. Right? Do you had to, you know, you're building rapport when your, with your clients that you were doing marketing projects with and you're building rapport with your clientele that you are, that you're coaching. So it go there, it's. It goes hand in hand. Right. We can't be. I think both things are like, you gotta have your.
I like to say you have your on switch where you have your on switch from when you start till the end of the day. And then of course we all have our off switch where we're kind of unwinding with our families, we're having supper, we're relaxing. So not that we're different people, but we're just, it's a different scene and different scenario and we can't just be on like we can't have that on switch 24 hours a day, but you have to have it on a certain part of the day in order to do what the things that you're wanting to do. So for sure. So you mentioned it earlier, but I do want to kind of get your feedback on this.
How, how would you interview someone who is over qualified? Because I would say most people or most organizations who are interviewing somebody, they'll probably start off and they'll probably say, you know, I've been looking at your resume and I know we did call you in for your interview, but you, you do look overqualified. This is what it is. You know, if you want to continue the interview, great. If you don't, it's okay. We totally understand. And I'm not sure I kind of like that philosophy. I know people are not wanting to, to waste anybody's time, but you know, they're there for, they applied and they, you, you can't, you, you know, you contact them for the interview. So they're interested in going, so why not conduct it? So. But there is a certain way, I'm sure that we can do it.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that job applications and job descriptions don't necessarily paint a full picture of the seniority level or the responsibilities or lack thereof.
I'm a huge fan of pay transparency. Not every country I'm in the U.S. not every U.S. state requires it on job descriptions. Some do, some don't.
But I'm a huge fan of it because I think even before you apply, if something is, you know, 50k or 75k below your last job, and that could just save a lot of people a lot of time if, if that's not something you can work with. But assuming that that is already out there and you are interviewing someone, I think it really comes back to being very transparent about what the job is, what the growth opportunities are or aren't, and really understanding what the goals are of that person and asking why, I mean, why do you want this job? Why do you want to work here? Why does this matter to you? A lot of people take pretty massive pay cuts for mission and purpose.
You know, it's a really important element of people's careers. I know plenty of people who left corporate, went into nonprofit. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's not necessarily being overqualified, but it's certainly a pay cut because it's a different industry with different revenue models, but mission and purpose and people can really drive people away from just thinking about that bottom line salary. So getting an understanding of that, I think is the first step for sure. I mean, I, I will say that if someone has to be pretty convincing to me because as a former hiring manager, I would be very worried that that person is taking something just to take it. If they're currently unemployed, if they're leaving a position for this, that's a different story. Story.
But if they have been looking for a job for a while, then I would be concerned that that person that this might be a very temporary stepping stone.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: I totally agree with you on that. I would be Larry as well. But I do love you talking about, you know, your communication and I, you know, I like to say, reiterate what you said. I like to talk about clear expectations. So I feel like in the interview if they do, if they are interested and they do come, they do come to me for the interview, then you know, no holds bar letting them know exactly what the job entails, what you're looking for, what your expectations of that, what they, what you expect of them on a daily basis and that type of stuff and having them have a clear understanding of what it, the whole day or what your day would look like and how everything would transpire. So they're not leaving there, going, asking themselves, oh I wonder this or I wonder that they're leaving and they have a full picture and idea of what's, what's happening. And I feel like if it does work out and you do hire that person then I, you know, I think we need to do that again. And you know, I said, I know we talked about this in the interview but you know, let's, I'm gonna, you know, let's go over, you know, what I, you know, what my expectations of you are in this job and what we're needing to do. And we're gonna check and I'm sure you, it sounds like you've done this. You know, we're gonna do some check ins, we're gonna see how you're doing, you know, let's check in. And the next, the standard is, I know in Canada is like three months, so we'll check in three months. But I kind of like the before then. I'm, I'm a fan of checking in a little bit before just to see how they're, how they're doing and not to beat them to see or to be mean or whatever. But you know, you want to let them know that you're there for them and you're there to help them and you know, in any way and you want them to be successful at the position. So letting you know, letting them know that you're there for them and if they have any questions or what have you and you know, and have an open policy so that they are not afraid to ask any questions. Because I feel like some people are afraid to ask questions too as well.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean if it's a direct report, I've always met with them weekly. I wouldn't wait 90 days.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: No, no, I agree with you 100 on that. I would definitely do that if it was a direct report.
You know, let's, you know, let's meet on, you know, they, we met on the Friday. Okay, let's meet next Friday. And at least it kind of gives you some stuff. You know, say, okay, this is what we discussed. And then you can kind of, okay, how did the week go? And you know, I know we discussed these things. How did everything go? Did you get a clear understanding? Do you need any help with anything? How's the workload? You know, is it too much for you? Do you know, do we need to get you some help?
You know, if you're doing it in three months, then, you know, it's kind of lost. Like there's so many things that could happen in a three month span that we lose. I think the perspective of the, of the candidate. For sure.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So this has been such an amazing conversation. I've really enjoyed it for our listeners. What is one takeaway that you would want the audience to get from this episode as far as our conversation?
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah, my big takeaway for everyone every single day and specifically for this episode is that only you get to decide what success looks like for you.
And that could mean climbing the corporate ladder until you get to the C suite and taking jobs that you're under qualified for and pushing yourself as hard as possible and as fast. Or it could mean taking a couple years off of work to focus on things that are more personal for you or anything in between that. And so I think that there is a lot of pressure on people to continually climb and continually grow. But that's not how life works. I mean, life throws us curveballs all the time. And one of the great things is I think that as a function, HR is starting to recognize that and starting to not necessarily penalize people for having gaps or for taking a job that they are overqualified for and really trying to understand the full picture of someone's life. Because I think what we've gotten wrong is we've tried to fit our life around our work when we really should be trying to figure out how our work should fit into our lives.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah, like we're talking about overqualified and earlier we're talking about under qualified. You hit the nail on the head there. You're talking about, you know, someone who stays home. So, you know, let's say it's a mother that stays home. They decide that, you know, they were working and then they decided, you know what, I'm gonna stay home with My, with my child or children, I'm gonna raise them for a couple of years and then we'll figure it out in a couple of years. And then you, you look back and, you know, I love to hear that companies, I am seeing the two that companies are looking at that aspect as well because we talked earlier about transferable skills and there's so much that, you know, you can take from your past career. Even if you took a gap of two years, you still, those, those skills don't vanish. Like, you still have them and it's like riding a bike. Like, you still remember them, you still are familiar with them. They're still embedded in your brain. Whether you stay at home or, you know, and take a break because of undue hardship or whatever, or you're taking a break because you want to take care of your children, so.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Right. Absolutely.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, listen, I want to take the time to, to thank you for coming on today. I really feel like this was such a really good conversation. I really feel like, like the, you know, our listeners are listening in today are going to get a lot out of this. It is something that I've been looking at for a long time, this topic, and it's something that I've been hearing on the ground floor in conversations about being overqualified and what do we do. So I, I'm super happy that I was able to, to get you on here because I do feel like you are someone who fully understands that and you, you hit the ground running and you understand what it means in this space of over, of being overqualified. So thank you so much for, for your time. You are an absolute gem and it was super awesome to have you on today and I'm super honored to have you as a connection as well.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: So I appreciate it. Thank you for having me and it was a real pleasure to be here.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: It was super awesome. So listen, on behalf of myself and my guest Amy, I'd like to thank you all for listening today and until next time, be safe. And remember, everybody, if we all work together, you can accomplish anything you have been listening to. Let's be dark diverse with Andrew Stout.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: To stay up to date with future content, hit subscribe.
