Trauma Informed In The Workplace

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's be diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who have supported me through this journey. The interesting topic that came up to me this week that I thought I wanted to get into is trauma informed for an organization. It was something that was really interesting to me, so I thought I would delve into this today, and I was lucky enough to find someone who has great experience and great knowledge in this area. So my guest is Michelle Vandehe. Michelle founded Light of Love Coaching in February of 2020 and is a trauma informed, certified holistic life coach. She empowers mission driven leaders and teams to overcome the culture of over giving and self sacrifice so they don't lose themselves in their mission. Michelle guides leaders and teams to connect more deeply to themselves, their mission, and their community through holistic coaching and somatic practices which creates long lasting, sustainable impact. When she is not coaching, speaking, or facilitating workshops, you can find Michelle dancing in her kitchen, biking to pilates, getting lost in the woods, or running with the sunrise. When I first met her, I thought, what a remarkable individual. She was so kind, so nice, and what I loved about her, she was open to have a conversation with me, and I just gravitated to her immediately. And I'm so happy to have her on today. I'm so happy she agreed to come on today. Welcome to the show, Michelle. I'm so excited to have you on as a guest today. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Hey, Andrew, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the intro. And, yeah, it was so good that you reached out and that we got to connect and, yeah, it's been great ever since. [00:02:06] Speaker B: It has. It has. So my first before we begin, um, it says here in your intro that you like dancing in the kitchen or what's the favorite song? [00:02:15] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Is there a particular one or is it just whatever comes on is just get you grooving it? [00:02:22] Speaker A: You know, it depends. But, like, I I have a playlist, but then also sometimes I'm just like, let's see what the universe wants me to dance to today. And so a lot of it tends to be, I like pink and, like, Taylor Swift, like that kind of stuff, and then, like, even, like, black eyed peas. And so it's definitely kind of varies, but so I don't have a specific song. One that I've been listening to a lot lately is this is me from the greatest showman. So that's always a fun one. Like, I feel like they're usually empowering songs or just, like, fun songs to shake around to and move my body a little bit. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Yes, I totally agree with you. I like the mix of the old school and a little bit of the black eyed peace. So kind of going into, you know, a little, like, new school and old school. One that I've actually been listening to a lot lately is a little bit of Mary J. Blige. Mary J. Blige. And there's one song in particular that's just fine. And it's just one of those songs that just starts off right from the get go. Great beat. And just her words in there is pretty inspiring. You know, that I'm just me and this is who I am and take me for who I am and I'm not gonna let you get put me down and so it's really. It's a really inspiring, really inspiring song, for sure. So I do enjoy it. [00:03:50] Speaker A: I love that. [00:03:51] Speaker B: How are things with you in your world, Michelle? What's going on? [00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean, it's December, so it's busy around here. And my daughter was just in, like, a public play for the first time last weekend. And so that was a fun journey leading up to that. And then seeing her on stage in front of, you know, a crowd of, you know, couple hundred people was really cool and fun to experience, and I'm excited for her to do it again. And I'm also, like, happy that, like, now we can move on to the next thing, because it was also very busy. So, yeah, so that's just been kind of some of the fun stuff that we've been doing, and now it's, like, full on holiday mode. We have a lot of, like, family birthdays in December, too. There's, like, lots of things going on, so there's some shopping in my future today. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Gwen, how's. How's business going in your end there? [00:04:47] Speaker A: It's going really well. It's been very busy for me lately as far as, like, things that have been kind of in the works for a while have all kind of come to fruition. So I've been facilitating a lot of workshops for myself and then for organizations and then just, like, getting proposals out there for working with teams and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's. It's. It's been good. Like, a good busy, like, not overwhelming, thankfully. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Well, that's good. That's good. It should be. I find it is a busy time. We are trying to prepare for the new year. So you're trying to kind of get stuff ready for the new year's, but it's kind of like a wind down of like what, you know, what we accomplished this year and you know, what's to come for the new year. So that's kind of way that I kind of look at it as well. So, yeah, it's an interesting time. Well, I'm glad to hear that things are going well with you on your end. Congratulations on your little one's first concert. That's awesome. And there's lots of things to come. Maybe we might be talking about a superstar in the mix there. Who knows? [00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah, who knows? [00:06:07] Speaker B: So before we begin, I always have a fun question to get my guests engaged in going into the podcast. Are you ready for yours today? [00:06:16] Speaker A: Yes. I thought it was the dancing one. [00:06:21] Speaker B: No, no, no. Surprise, surprise. So your question is, why do we say that we have the weight of the world on our shoulders, but when we try to express it, we say that we have to get it off of our chests. [00:06:39] Speaker A: Oh. Ooh, that is a good one, I think. I mean, I mean, just thinking about it myself, I feel like it's like, it's. I don't know, it's like you're carrying things on your should. Like when you carry things, typically you're carrying them on your shoulders, right. Or like on your back. And then when you say, like, you have to get it off your chest, like, for me, I feel like it's. Because it's like something that's been like on my heart, so to speak. Or it's like you. You feel that like in your heart, and so it's like you want to get it off your chest. So that's, that's. That's from my perspective, that's. That's how I kind of feel about it. But I never have thought about that before. That's such a good question. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, why not? You could steal it. Absolutely. Yeah. It's. It's something that I have. I love your answer. For somebody that didn't know what the question was, he did a great job. So I appreciate you having fun with me. I just love these types of questions to start. They're so fun. And I think I enjoy them more than the guests because I like to see what the guest is going to answer. So, yeah, you did a good job. [00:07:51] Speaker A: I passed? [00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you passed. You did. Check. Check mark for. Check Mark for Michelle here today. So why don't we start off with you telling us a little bit about you, your story and your. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Why my story, like, especially when it comes to coaching, it really started back in 2018. So we have two children. One, our son died back in October of 2018, and that really, you know, obviously just completely changed our lives. And I moving into that new year and then coming that next fall, so really it was, like, around a year later. And I think part of it was I was also doing daycare part time because I was staying home with my kids and doing all that kind of stuff. And I was talking to a friend, and I've always had some sort of, like, business on the side. I've always been entrepreneurial. And I'm like, I don't know what I want to do with my life because my daughter, my daycare kids, they're all getting older, they're going to school more, and I like, I don't want to do daycare my whole life. Like, that was never the plan, and I don't want to take on more kids and all that kind of stuff. So, like, what should I do? And she's like, well, you should be a health coach. And I'm like, what? Like, you know, I don't want to be a coach. And I was like, you know how I feel about coaches, not like I was like, felt bad about them, but I'm like, I don't. I don't want to be one. And she's like, because I've been, one of my businesses was in the health and nutrition industry for the last, like, ten years at that time. And she's like, well, what else? What else are you going to do, Michelle? You want to do something else? What else are you going to do? And I'm like, I don't know. You're right. Like, this is what I need to do. So I dove into health coaching and took on some clients relatively quickly because it was like she said to me, she's like, you're already doing it. You're just not charging people for it. And so that's when I started, and I wasn't looking for anything different, but I kept noticing that my clients really needed more work with their mindset than anything. They didn't need to know what to eat, what not to eat, but they really needed to figure out their mindset. And again, I wasn't really looking for something. But then come the new year, January of 2020, and I come across this holistic life coaching certification, and I was like, okay, I didn't want to be a health coach. I sure as heck did not want to be a life coach. Like, those are the people that just tell you what to do with your lives and their know it alls. Like, you know, that's like the. Those ego things that I had in the back of my head. But there was something about it being holistic, which I feel like most life coaches are. But it was like that piece of it that really drew me in. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm not gonna tell anyone. I'm not gonna even call myself a life coach. I'm just gonna use what I learned with my current clients. Well, I think the. The universe or God was really laughing at me because as soon as I dove into that certification, we were doing, like, a meditation, and just some, like, something came over me, and it was just like this message of, like, you need to help grieving moms. And so it was like, right then and there that I'm like, yep, that's what I'm gonna do. Even though I was scared, I'm like, I don't have any background in psychology, grief, or anything like that. Like, how am I going to help these people? But it's obviously, like, through my own journey. And so I had been doing that for the past several years, and then obviously, the pandemic happened. But then, end of 2021, beginning of 2022, I started getting asked to be speak to facilitate meditation and things like that at conferences and workshops and retreats. And a lot of it was coming from nonprofit organizations. And so I was starting to work with some of them to do some of this stuff. And in speaking with them and talking with them and hearing about a lot of their struggles and things that they're going through, I all of a sudden just kind of realized at the end of last year, so at the end of 2022, like, I'm like, I really should be helping these people because I can really create a bigger impact that way. And I love working with people that have a little bit of this, like, this drive to make things better or to change or to help people that have maybe gone through something that they've gone through. And so I made that shift at the end of last year and kind of made it official at the beginning of this year that I'm going to start working with mission driven leaders. And then in doing that, it came during, while I was talking about this and sharing about this with people and starting to do doing some other types of speaking, I got some people in organizations that are like, well, can you work with my entire team? And so that's when I started working with leaders and teams. So it's been a fun journey this past year because it feels like it's been so. Such a journey, and it's been interesting, like, almost like reinventing myself in a way that I felt like it was gonna go faster. But that's what I said earlier. It's like a lot of things that have kind of been culminating throughout this entire year have come to fruition now these past couple months. So that's what has, like, brought me to today, really. [00:13:18] Speaker B: First off, back from 2018. I commend you for your strength to just to keep going and to pursue your dream. So I definitely want to commend you on that. First of all, the other thing I want to commend you on is it's amazing how people, in a leadership standpoint, it's amazing how people can take what they've done, their skills, and transfer it to another thing, and then take that and transfer it to another thing. Taking what you've learned from the past, from, you know, even going back from daycare to going into what you're doing now, you know, I'm sure that you can say that you took a little bit of everything from the past years to adapt it to the next stage, in the next phase of your career. So I want to commend you for doing. Do you have any ability to adapt and encouraged to move forward in what you were looking to do? [00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, it's funny you bring that up because I don't know if you've ever taken, like, the strengths finders test. Have you ever done that personality test before? So my second strength is adaptability. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And it is interesting, and it is funny. Like, even just, like, with daycare and kids, it's like, we can learn so much from kids, and I learned so much from kids. And I think that's just, like, it's a beautiful way to learn and kind of see the lens through the eyes of children. [00:15:00] Speaker B: I was talking to somebody a couple weeks ago, and we're talking about leadership, and I was saying to them, we just forget that we were leaders way back when we were children. And I said to them, and I'll probably date myself again here, but I remember when I was a kid playing a game called follow the leader, where you're following one person, a kid is the leader, and you're following them. And we just forget that way back when. That's when we learned to become a leader. Our parents teach us how to become leaders. So you were talking about your little one getting ready to do a, you know, a performance, being a leader as a parent, preparing them and teaching them how to prepare for this, and the next time, they're going to be even more prepared for it because they were ready to go. So we just forget the standpoints of leadership and where that's. That comes from. And when we actually sit down and think about it, say, hey, I was a leader back then, or I did, you know, learn. Teach people how to do this and do that, it's amazing when we sit down and actually put pen to paper and actually think about it. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [00:16:16] Speaker B: So what does it mean to be trauma informed in the workplace? [00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah, to be trauma informed. And so, like, this is where last year. So in 2022, I did this 20 hours trauma sensitive yoga training, and it was actually a friend of mine that's a psychotherapist and coach was like, we should do this together. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. Especially because it's like, at the time, I was working with grieving parents, and it's like, yes, they've obviously been through trauma. And it's funny because, like, at the beginning of my coaching, I'm like, I don't want, like, I don't want people to think anything like that. I don't know anything about trauma because, like, I feel like it's such a big thing, and it's like, I don't want people to think that I can help them with that. And now it's, like, a big part of what I do. And so I did that certification, and it just opened my eyes up to, like, being trauma informed and all this kind of stuff. And so at the beginning of 2023, I decided to enroll in their trauma sensitive yoga certification. And so I am, like, knee deep in that. Like, we're actually getting to the end of the first semester, so it's like, a six month program, and I. For me, like, being trauma informed is really about, like, not, like, letting go of judgments of people. It's about offering choice as well, especially in leadership. I feel like so often it's easy to fall into, like, more of, like, a dictatorship of, like, I'm. I'm the leader, so I will tell you what to do. And even going back to, like, parenting, right? Like. Or, like, dealing with kids, it's like, we think we're the adults, so we get to tell the kids what to do. And so it's. It's easy to fall into that, and I fall into it easily, too, of, like, oh, I know what to do. I'm going to tell you what to do. And so when we kind of start bringing in this trauma informed lens, and it doesn't even have to be that the people you work with have experienced trauma or you're in an organization that deals with trauma, but being trauma informed is really about having. Having this, like, shared power as well. And, like, so allowing the people that you work with, especially if you are some sort of leader, to have choice and have say in how things go and how things run, especially because I think some of the best companies and the best organizations are the ones that adapt and change based on the people that are, quote, unquote, like, on the ground. Like, they're the ones working, like, like, the frontline type of people, working with the customers or working with whoever you're working with, they're the ones that are getting the best feedback. So if we're not listening to them and we're just kind of dictating from this, like, leadership position, then we're actually not doing the best for our company either. And I feel like it, like, it gets into, like, this standard, like, patriarchal type of doing things and, like, and that's how things have run for however many years, especially in the United States. And so it's like, making this shift of, like, just because you're, you're sharing power does not mean that you're still, like, you can share power while still being a leader. It doesn't mean that they're gonna, like, take your position from you or anything like that. It's really about this, like, shared, authentic experience and being able to do things in more of a collaborative way, as opposed to, like, I'm gonna tell you what to do sort of thing. [00:20:15] Speaker B: I love everything that you said there. One thing that kind of jumped out at me is that letting go of is letting go of judgment. And I do agree with you. I feel in a leadership standpoint or in a workplace standpoint, I feel that there's a lot of judgment just looking at stuff that we have no clue or idea of what's going on. And I think there's just got to be, like you said, the ability to adapt and understand what they might be going through as well, and, you know, and working with them and having the ability to, to help them to get through any tasks or anything that they're going through. And I just think that once we do that, it's going to make things so much easier for the overall organization. And I like to call work a safe work environment. And I think that's all, we all strive to have. And I think it's super important when we do have that. [00:21:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's like, that's the other piece about, like, trauma informed leadership, is that you, when you treat everyone in a way or you, like, conduct yourself in a way that is more in alignment with being trauma informed, then you don't have to know what people are going through to be able to be supportive of them as well, because you're. You're assume, like, not necessarily assuming, but it's like you're approaching people from this trauma informed lens that if they are going through something that they feel comfortable or, like you said, safe coming to you and. And sharing things, especially sharing things that maybe it's like, oh, I think we could be doing this better, or maybe bringing up something that maybe is. Is, like, not great that's going on that someone needs to hear about so it can change to. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:11] Speaker A: And if people aren't feeling safe and they aren't feeling supported, they're not gonna do that. And so really being trauma informed is also, like, assuming that, like, everyone, that everyone is also, like, in the best interest of the company and for themselves. And then it's like, it's. It's not about company first or people first. It's just like we're together. Right? Like, it doesn't have to be the either or. It can be like, we're here for both. So how can we create solutions and create an environment where we're supporting the organization and the people in it? And it's not a separate thing. It's a both. [00:22:50] Speaker B: I want to get your opinion on how organizations support or how can they support their staff in a trauma informed way. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And one way they can do that, I think, is it really is creating an environment of this feeling of safety. And it's interesting with being in this trauma sensitive yoga certification, something that gets brought up is like, we don't get to decide what is safe for other people. So, like, saying, like, this is, like, this is a safe space. Well, if I say that, I may think it's a safe space, but the people I'm bringing in, someone might not think it's safe, safe. And so that in and of itself is just kind of an interesting concept, but it's about, like, creating this culture of that if. If someone brings something up that you're not going to be, like, ridiculed for it, you're not going to be like, have some sort of punishment or something, you're not going to get fired, you're not going to like, not get your raise because you bring something up and maybe, and also, like, you're not going to be humiliated or like, you know, it's not going to be shared with everyone. And I think that's something, a way to create safe spaces is confidentiality and like an autonomy as well. And so, and so, like being able to create spaces to do that and, and maybe even offering a way to have some sort of anonymous feedback. And it's like, it wouldn't be something that you would want to use all the time. Because sometimes if there's conflicts coming up, it's easier if you can, you know, address them directly with the people that they involve. But sometimes there's things that don't, we don't need to know who's involved to address it as well. And someone who might have be, feel afraid of coming forward and saying something can have this maybe more of a feeling of safety if they can do it anonymously. So just like that could be a way to be able to do that. Yeah. [00:25:14] Speaker B: I love the culture, the creating a culture that is safe to bring up ideas. I know in a lot of situations people are almost sometimes afraid to come forward because they feel like their ideas are going to be shot down. So the company may not use your idea, but it doesn't mean that your idea is going to be, you know, the next idea that you come up with is going to be something that they would use. But I, by not being afraid to come forward and bring ideas and talk about things that, or structures or processes that we're looking to adopt, you know, if you're afraid to, if you think you, oh, I'm not going to bring that up because they're just going to shoot it down then, you know, those ideas or that creativity is never going to be an innovation, is never going to be brought into play if we never do that. And of course, mistakes are going to be made. So if we're afraid to do that, things are never going to develop. But if, but the next one might be like, okay, well, yeah, that might be good. Let's, let's see if we know, let's try to adopt that. Let's see if we can try that. And then, you know, wish we can't be afraid. I always say to myself, I'm never afraid of the word no. So we're going to hear no in our lifetime, but we should never be. I'm never afraid to hear it. So just because I hear no from one person doesn't mean that it's gonna be no from everybody. So I just say, okay, no problem. It didn't work out for that person, or that idea didn't work. Let's go on to the next one. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And the ability to allow people, allow your employees and your staff to say no. Right. Like, they don't always have to say yes to everything. And obviously, there are certain things that need to get done on certain timelines and all that kind of stuff. And if you have great workers, they're gonna know that. But there are certain things where it's like, people don't have to say yes to everything. Like, allowing them to have the space to say no to some things can be really powerful as well, because that's that shared power, right? That's that, like, giving them some of their power and feeling like, then they're feeling empowered. Like, oh, I get to choose what I do. And when they feel like they have choice, too, like, when I get to choose something, I get more excited about it, right? Like, so it's like when people feel like they're getting to make some choices, even if it's small things that. That helps build that, like, confidence and that excitement about doing the work that they're doing, because it's like, okay, I get to choose some of this stuff. There's some stuff. Everyone has stuck work stuff that they don't like to do, right? So it's not like they're just gonna be like, oh, I'm never gonna do anything I don't like. But there are. There are certain things that it's like, okay, I can choose whether or not I do this, and now I'm gonna be excited about it, and that's gonna spill over in the other work that they're doing, because then it's like, okay, I can deal with these things that I don't like, because I know this one thing that I got to choose to say yes to really excites me. [00:28:28] Speaker B: So that statement makes me think of when we are. When you're someone who's looking for a new job or a new opportunity, you are in a situation where, you know, you may or may not hate what you or, like, what you're doing, but you were looking through, you know, the tasks, and you kind of say, okay, you know, what are the things I like about what I'm doing now? What are things I don't like? And when you're looking for a job, you're talking about choices. You have the choice to look for something that you think that you're going to enjoy. So you're not looking for the, you know, if you're looking for a new career, don't. You're not looking for a job of the things that you are doing now that you don't enjoy. You're looking for the thing, something to do of the, all the things that you enjoy. So, for example, you know, you were saying daycare. You start daycare, and you said, okay, I enjoyed it. You do to work for time. And at the end, you know, after a while, you're like, you know what? I'm, you know, I don't really want to do this anymore. Well, you're not going to. The next thing you're going to do, you weren't going to do anything that had to do with daycare. You were going to move on to something of stuff that you enjoyed and you researched and everything to figure out what that is, but you're not going to know daycare has nothing to do with what you're doing now. And not that you hated it, but it was just something that you needed to move away from. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And there's like, yeah, like you said, it's like, I, like, I love helping people and working with people. And so I was doing that through daycare and then I was doing it through coaching. So there's, those were, like, the aspects of it that I really enjoyed that I brought forward. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So I know we kind of talked about culture here, but I wanted to know what your thoughts are. Is how important is trauma informed of communication when it comes to improving workplace culture? [00:30:27] Speaker A: It's, I mean, yeah, it's, it's really important. And that's where it's like, finding ways to offer more choices and include everyone in decisions that get made. Even if it's like the fun stuff. Let's say, like, maybe it's like, okay, what are we doing for our end of the year party? Let's say it's like, does everyone get, like, a say in that? Or is it just like, the management or whatever that gets to decide things like that even matter? And so it's like, how can we offer options for people to have choice and have say in things and just, just even asking someone what they think, like, that's. That, like, feeling seen, heard, and valued. That's how people feel. Valued is when they feel seen and heard. And so asking them their opinion about whatever it is matters. It matters. And, and doing it throughout the year, and not just, like once a year, not like during your annual review or whatever it is. Doing that on a consistent basis throughout the year. And that's how you really create the culture then. And that's how people start feeling safe of, like, oh, they want to hear from me and they want to know what I think about things. And, and it's not going to go against me if I say something that I feel like isn't working well, that I think can be improved. So that's really how you're able to do it and doing it in a way that is throughout the year and not just like a one time annual review type of thing. [00:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And when we talk to Rory about adopting change, I think, you know, when you're sitting in a meeting and you're talking about something, saying, this is what we're thinking of doing, and I think it's important to go around the room and get everybody's input and figure out what, find out what they're thinking, what their thoughts are and stuff, and taking notes of everything. And I, you know, and if you're gonna. And I think communication is probably a huge part of everything, making sure that, you know, when there is something that's being or is there, if there's a change that's being adopted, communicating all throughout to let people know, this is where we're at. This is the process. This is what the next step is. You know, if you have any questions, it'll speak to your direct manager, and they will, you know, you know, let you know what's going on. But I think that communication factor is super key, for sure. [00:33:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And letting people say what they, like, say what they want to say without, like, without a rebuttal. Right. Without saying, like, well, like, well, we can't do that sort of thing, like, actually taking it in, whether you know or not, as the leader or the manager, if you know it's possible or not. Like, you don't need to say that right away. It can be like, this is, okay, awesome. Like, we're gonna take this in because, too, it's like, what if someone else brings up something like that? And then it's like, okay, we really do need to reconsider this thing because it's getting brought up by multiple people. [00:33:58] Speaker B: I always say, as a leader, that we need to figure out. There's two situations when we're either in a meeting or on a one. On one. There's two stages of listening. One is, like you said, really listening to give feedback, and then there's what I call listening with pause. And that is where you are asking what their opinions are taking it all in. But in that situation, I don't think there's any feedback that's needed because you are asking them their opinion. If you're giving feedback on their opinion, and that means that their opinion, not really important. So you're listening to them taking it all in and taking notes and listening to what they have to say. That's the most important thing. [00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. [00:34:51] Speaker B: So if you could choose one word to describe yourself, what word would that be? [00:34:59] Speaker A: One word I would say. Say life. Like, I just, like, part of me is, like, I like fun and, you know, positivity and, like, just, like, I. I want people to love their lives, and, like, I just feel, like when you feel like you're full of life, like, that's when you're bringing your best foot forward, and that's when you are able to say no, when you need to say no, and that's when you're just, like, enjoying your life, and everyone deserves to be able to do that. So I'm gonna say it. Life. [00:35:40] Speaker B: I love that. [00:35:40] Speaker A: I love that. [00:35:41] Speaker B: I have to agree with you. All through all of our conversations that you and I have had, I definitely think you are a, what I would say, a liver of life. You enjoy life. I, you know, conversations. I even see posts that you put out there, and there's, you know, it's always a lot of, you know, smile on your face, enjoying what you're doing, enjoying talking to people, connecting with people. And I just think that that's one of the things that I admire about you, is that you're, you know, you enjoy your life and what you're doing, for sure. [00:36:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks, Andrew. [00:36:18] Speaker B: You're very welcome. Any final thoughts today? [00:36:22] Speaker A: You know, just to, if anything that we talked about today, especially if you are a leader or a manager or something like that, and it feels like, was I being attacked or something? You know? Like, sometimes it can kind of feel that way to just, like, take a step back and know that everything that we talked about today is in love. It's not in judgment. And it's like we're just kind of trying to shift how we're used to working. And so to not judge yourself if you're doing things in a way that doesn't feel good, maybe, and you're like, okay, I do want to make this shift. That's great. Like, everything we talked about, it's just about bringing awareness. And hopefully, if you have some new awarenesses that then you can start making some of these shifts and these changes, but to not feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm a terrible person because I'm doing this, this and this. To know that, like, everything was said with love and for you to be curious about things. And that's what I always tell people is be curious. You don't have to be judgmental about yourself. Just be curious about what you're learning. And if it's making you rethink things, that's a good thing, right? That's the creativity and the innovation happens when you can be curious and not allow that judgment of self or others to come in. [00:37:45] Speaker B: It makes me think everything you said there makes you think of diversity of thought there, that there's a different way of doing things. It just means that, you know, doesn't mean that my way is better than your way. It's just a different way of thinking of it and looking at it. So I think we just have to, I agree with you, just have to respect everybody's opinion and ideas and not have judgment of, you know, what is that opinion is or. And not just, you know, a simple, that's their thought. Let's, you know, I admire that. And we leave it at that. Yeah, for sure. Well, I wanted to take the time to, to thank you for coming on again today, Michelle. It was. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I think it was super informative, fun, energetic. And I agree with you on your word. You are someone who is full of life and energy, and I was super honored to connect with you right from the beginning. And I'm super honored to stay connected with you, have these conversations with you on and off podcasts. You're a tremendous individual, and I am honored that you were willing to spend the time with me today. So thank you very much. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. [00:39:12] Speaker B: You're very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest, Michelle, I'd like to thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, if we all work together, everyone, we can accomplish anything. [00:39:29] Speaker A: You have been listening to. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout. [00:39:33] Speaker A: To stay up to date with future content, hit subscribe.