Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to take a moment to share something that's been on my heart, something I've been working on behind the scenes for a while now. I'm officially writing a book. This book is called let's Be A Practical Guide to Leading Through Change. And it's deeply personal to me. It's built from real experiences. The uncertainty, the challenges, the moments where I didn't have the answers but had to lead. This isn't just a leadership book filled with theory. It's about navigating uncertainty when there's no clear direction, building internal clarity when everything around us feels unclear, having courageous conversations, even when they're uncomfortable, and leading with value, especially when it's the hardest to do so. I'm also going into topics that don't get talked about enough, like what it feels like to be challenged, overlooked, and even bullied as an adult in a workplace. And how those moments shape the kind of leader you become. This book is for anyone who's ever thought, how do I lead when I don't feel ready? How do I show up when I don't have all the answers? And how do I stay true to myself in environments that challenge me? If this is you, this book is for you. I'll be sharing more about the journey behind the scenes moments, and opportunities for you to be part of it as we go. So stay tuned, because this is more than just a book. It's a movement around how we lead through change together. All right, let's get to today's episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Good day, wonderful people. Welcome to another edition of let's Be diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who've supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Our topic today is the power of your voice. Speaking with purpose, leading with impact. Our guest today is a returnee. Such a fantastic human and one of my favorite people in the world. Her name is Hannah Rose. Hannah, welcome back to the show. So thankful for you to join us again here.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. What a kind introduction. I'm, like, tearing. I'm like. That is so nice. Yeah, it's great to be back.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Well, it is awesome to have you back. I've said to you several times, I think super highly of you. You are such an inspirational human and I just love everything that you do, all the work that you do. And so happy to be connected with you and to have these opportunities to have these conversations with you.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Me too. Likewise.
[00:02:32] Speaker C: What's been energizing you these days, Hannah? Give me the tea, give me the deets, give me it all. What's going on?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Oh, my God. What hasn't been energizing me? I think I'm just so deeply an enthusiast of so many things. And so what's been energizing me? Rang Returning to therapy work and clinical work and also some work outside of the clinical parameters. I've got some public speaking stuff going on. I am creating content for Insight Timer, which is one of my favorite apps of all time. So that being a teacher on Insight Timer is incredibly exciting for me. And I'm really energized by the reality TV shows that my husband and I watch every night. I'm. I'm energized by existence and travel and being home. I'm energized by everything. Andrew.
[00:03:17] Speaker C: I love all of that. And I was smiling when you say reality TV because I always say my brain is always done by the end of the day. Some people do physical labor, some people do thinking all the day. So by the time the day is ended, I can't think anymore. So all I really want to do after supper is watch what I call mindless TV stuff that I don't have to think or come up with a solution for it. Just sit back and relax and watch that. That is my time to relax and unwind. So I was smiling when you said that for sure.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. Some of my most cherished moments are being on the couch with my husband watching shows together. It's my love language.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: It is, absolutely. Well, thanks so much for sharing that with us. I love that you're returning back to therapy work because I do think that you are really good at that. I've seen a lot of things that you do. So super happy for you that you're doing that. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question that I ask all my guests to get things going on. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:04:20] Speaker B: I'm so ready.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: Okay. Well, your question is, do you think humans have free will or are our choices predetermined?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: My wow, this was a curveball. Short answer, free will, longer answer. In the last two years, I have deeply dove into Eastern philosophy, specifically Zen Buddhism and Taoism. And I believe that the way knows the way, as in we just have to get out of the way and flow with the current. The current is going to be flowing and when I'M living in the space between reality as it is and reality as I want it to be. Therein lies my suffering. So I don't know if that has to do so much with free will versus predetermination. I don't think I believe in predetermination, but I also really, really know that I am not an expert on anything. And that beginner's mind is so freeing. So maybe, who knows? That's my answer. I have no freaking clue.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: I love that answer. I love it. It gave me two options or two opinions on both. Both sides. And I love it. I. I love the answer. Thanks for having fun with me.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: That's a wild, that is a wild question to drop in at 11 in the morning. I was like, hold on, let me take another sip of coffee there.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: Well, you know what? As I was planning this episode, I thought of something good and I saw that and I was like, hm, that's going to be the perfect question to throw at her. I knew that you were going to come out with something good. So that's awesome to get us started here. Hannah, who are you and what really drives you to do the work that you do?
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Who am I? Is a loaded question. Again with Buddhism. Who is anyone? What is the self? We're not going to get into that. Who am I? My name that I go by is Hannah. Fun fact. My last name is Rose, even though most people call me Hannah. Rose as one name. It's my last name. My name's Hannah.
I am someone who is an enthusiast and loves all things, most things and musical theater and caffeine. My vocation is a business owner, therapist, educator. I've got. I've got 17 things. Business wise. I am not a fan of making my vocation my identity. So even saying I am a therapist is like, no, I. I do therapist things. What I am is very fluid. So that's, that's who I am in this moment.
[00:06:37] Speaker C: I love it. And you're so enthusiastic about everything that you do. And I think that's a message as we get into this conversation here. And it's a great segue into this conversation because when we are enthusiastic about, it means that we have a passion about what we're doing. And when we have a passion for what we're doing, then everything just becomes so easy. And then you talked about flowing with the current. You're going to flow with the current when things are going in the passion that you want to continue going with.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. And I think I would add to that, that When I'm not in resistance of reality and of what is, it's so easy to tap into passion and joy and fun and childlike wonder because I'm not taking everything so seriously. And rather, I think oftentimes people ask, how are things? And my response, this might be annoying for people, is often depending on who it is, it doesn't matter how things are. Things do not determine how I am. And how I am is grounded and here and present and how things are seldom have a bearing on how I am. And I think that's a really important. Things don't just go my way. I adapt. And one of my favorite quotes is resist and suffer or accept and adapt. And that we have a choice every moment of every day. And so when I'm practicing accepting and adapting, yeah, I've got a whole lot to be excited about.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: Accept and adapt or resist and suffer. Choice is yours. So as we continue this conversation here, that is a great message for leaders because not everything is going to go well. You're going to be days that are going to be chaotic. I hope that leaders, business owners listen to that message because that's very, very important message.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's one that often we can't think our way into. We can't think our way into an emotional experience. And so it takes a lot of practice and a lot of mindfulness, which at its root is non judgmental awareness. And yeah, I think people always attribute like, wow, things must be going really well because you're so happy. And it's like, that is a fundamental flaw I think of our consciousness is like, have to be going my way to be happy and content. And that is problematic because everything is out of our control. I'm just like hardcore laying on the Buddhism thick. I'm going to pull it back, let you lead.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: No, no, I love it. I love it. Absolutely. So I am going to throw the heat at you here to get things going here.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Great.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: So, Hannah, why do so many talented leaders and professionals hesitate to speak up even when they know they have something valuable to contribute?
[00:09:07] Speaker B: That's a great question. And I think the way that I'm framing it is like why. Why do humans, period, right. Why would anyone, business owner, leader, public servant, server at a restaurant, janitor. Why does. Why do humans not speak up when they feel like they have something valuable to say? Short answer, I don't know, I'm not an expert. Longer answer. My hypothesis is there's a myriad of different things that block people from communicating their truth, be it imposter Syndrome, lack of self worth, fear of how others are going to respond and judge them. I think that's one of the most common ones is how am I going to be perceived? Am I going to be judged? And I think fear of perception keeps a lot of people from authenticity. And so, yeah, I would argue that leaders and people in positions of power may feel uncomfortable speaking up about any given thing or when their reputation or perception feels threatened and not knowing how it's going to be perceived because we can't manage how people perceive us. But social media tricks us into thinking that we can.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: 100% with you on that one. We cannot control what people think of us. We can only do what we can do and be who we are. If we're pretending to be somebody different inside the office or outside of the office, I think people will see that, and they will see right through that.
Absolutely not saying that people won't try to see through someone who is the same everywhere in any situation. But it's more likely that you're gonna have people that are gonna be like, who is. Who are they trying to be? Who are they trying to.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Who are they trying to fool?
[00:10:46] Speaker C: And I think just be who you are.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: I also just want to say what you're saying reminds me of a quote that it says, being who you are is the easy part. What is difficult is to stop being what you are not. And if people are like, what do you mean, be who I am? I don't know who the quickest path to true authenticity is. Shedding what is false. And it's. It's like a shortcut. It's like, I don't have to know who I am. Which, again, fallacy. I. What don't I like? Who am I not? And by shedding what's false, it's like we unearth this. This truth. And the other thing you were saying reminds me of. Yeah, real recognizes real. And people smell bs, you know, so they certainly do.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: So, Hannah, leadership isn't always about being the loudest person in a room. How can people develop a voice that inspires trust rather than simply demands attention.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Heavy hitters.
How can people inspire trust without demanding attention? I feel like a lot of this is done through modeling and through. I don't care if someone can talk the talk really well, are they walking the walk? I've heard my husband say, because he's in a leadership position, don't listen to my voice. Watch my feet. Right. What am I doing, though? Because a lot of us have the gift of gab. And whether you speak eloquently or charismatically, whether you have riz, like the kids say, or not. The reality is people are seeing actions. People are seeing how you hold yourself, how you show up in conflict, how you live your life. And so I think words are actually much less important than actions and what you're modeling to the people around you.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: And yeah, you said before fear of response. Your husband's saying, don't listen to my voice, watch my feet. A lot of leaders, I think, fear the response or fear how they're going to perceived by their response, by their. By their team members. And I think once you develop that, that trust with your team members, I don't think you have to worry about the fear of a response because they're gonna know that what's being said is genuine and authentic.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Y Absolutely. And I think to take it a step further, we're only able to truly access a deep level of trust with others, I think when we have a trusting relationship with ourselves. And so I have absolutely had a pattern of being a leader in the past who was incredibly fearful of how the team was going to perceive something, especially a difficult decision. I was incredibly people pleasing, I was incredibly conflict avoidant. And I really relate to that, that debilitating fear of are they going to be mad at me? And there is a wonderful book by a social worker that's relatively new called are you mad at me? And I highly recommend that anyone who struggles with conflict reads it. I'm actually going to look up who the author is. It was phenomenal. I listened to the audiobook, it's by Meg Josephson and she's a therapist. And it says how to stop focusing on what others think and start living for you. And I listened to that book alongside a myriad of other books about boundaries and realized that so much of my self worth was wrapped up in how I perceived that I was being perceived by others. And so for me, I think the reason I speak so frequently about this journey of the self and journey of a relationship with self is like today, of course, there are things that are still activating of my nervous system, but my self worth at its core is not contingent on what you or anyone else thinks of me and the freedom of realizing that no one thinks about me as much as I think about myself. No one. Like how depressing and how freeing. At the same time, I am not the main character in anyone's story. And so with leadership, I think for me, I really value taking care of the team and creating a safe and supportive environment and the Other book that really helped me with that is Radical Candor by Kim Scott. And Radical Candor is specifically about how to have direct communication with boundaries and clarity and compassion in a workspace. So I would add Radical Candor to everybody's list if you're a leader or if you're not. It's actually just a great book.
[00:14:50] Speaker C: It surely is. For sure, we often hear the phrase use your voice. But how do we know when to speak, when to stay silent, and how to have difficult conversations with courage and respect?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Geez. If there was a short answer for that question, I think that would crack the code for a lot of people. My, my answer to that is every situation is different, every person is different. So it's so nuanced. And I think when we look, as I have in the past, for what is the answer? I think a lot of our suffering is also coming from duality. What's the right thing and what's the wrong thing? And the reality is there is so much gray in most situations and we can get decision fatigue by being like, I need to make the right decision when what. Who is to say what's right and wrong outside of capital friggin offenses. And so I think for me, the journey has definitely been unblocking whatever's blocking me from being able to trust my gut and my intuition because today there isn't a whole decision tree that forms in my head. Although I've never, I've never been like that. I'm pretty decisive immediately, but I know what feels aligned. And I think listening to what feels misaligned helps me to guide when to speak up, when to keep my mouth shut, when to broach a difficult conversation. And the more that we're able to rely on our intuition and our gut, that's the compass. And so for me, a lot of the work that I do with leaders, with other therapists, with individuals is unblocking their head from their heart. To be cliche.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Yeah, the heart can come in pretty quickly depending on the situation or the scenario. And I would say sometimes or a lot of times we take it home with us and deal with it and talk to our significant others about those situations because they've just taken over our heart and our soul and, and we just have to not going to say separate it, but I think we have to understand that we can help as much as we can and show that we're there. And like you said, every situation is different. So we just have to figure out what situation that we're in and how to best handle It. Are we going to get it perfect all the time? Hannah no, we're not. But as long as I think the individual on the other end or the receiving end sees that we are doing our best and we're trying our best and we're being our. I'm going to use that buzzword authentic self, then I think people will see that and they will appreciate that, even if we, if we feel that we've messed up.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. I can't stress enough. I'm. I'm a couple months out from the most stressful experience professionally of my life. I got an ulcer. The level of physical and emotional stress and debilitating internal collapse, which really led to a spiritual awakening. It's pretty recent for me. And when I tell you that so much of my stress and fear and pain and suffering came from worrying about how the team was going to react. And it was really like a classic who's transitioning from 1099 independent contractors to W2 employees, right. But with that comes paychain, which I'm like, no, I can't. And, and having to make business decisions in a very human field. And it was the feedback I continued to get from my team was like, we know you're not trying to screw us over. Just keep us updated. And so I did. And in hindsight, they're like, how, how are you? This is the benefit of working with a bunch of therapists, but it was horrible. And what I realized is it wasn't about money or scarcity. It was about, am I going to let down the people that I want to support. And so I just, I really have empathy for leaders and people in work settings who have a fear of either being authentic or making hard decisions. It's very real and there is a
[00:18:25] Speaker C: way through it that certainly. There certainly is for sure. Hannah Many organizations say they value diversity, but employees don't always feel heard.
What practical steps can leaders take to ensure every voice has influence, not just a seat at the table?
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Again, I don't know, but here are my thoughts. I think what I keep, I keep thinking of with these questions specifically about leadership are Brene Brown's book Dare to Lead, which really helped me. I'm Dare to Lead trained like her 50 hour CEU training I've done. And I think the key recurring theme was about empathy, compassion, and yeah, it's cliche that is holding space for other people. I don't think everyone necessarily should have influence. Again, radical candor. You've got different types of employees or contractors. You've got people who are content where they are. There's the superstars, there's the rock stars. It's a wonderful book to just conceptualize it, but I don't know if everyone should have influence, but I do think every single person should be heard and valued and also seen as a human being, not just a worker. And so what can leaders do? I think it is on the leaders to create an emotionally safe and supportive work environment. But that requires the leaders to do their own internal work, because you can't force emotional safety and vulnerability and authenticity when you are not in connection with yourself. And so the trainings that I do, that I go into workplaces and train their staff, they always think it's going to be about patient care. And these are tricks to use with your patients. And as soon as I walk in, I flip the script and I'm like, no, this is only going to be about you and your relationship with you. And clinicians typically are very uncomfortable with that because they want to do the work with patients, not talk about what's coming up for them. And so it's my favorite thing in the world to do.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: Making it about them is key, for sure. I.
I love that you said that. Because everybody wants to be heard and have a seat at the table. And if people don't feel that they have a seat at a table, a lot of people just don't know what to do or how to handle that. And then there are those people who feel like, okay, well, if I don't have a seat at this table, I'm going to find another table to sit at. So it. But I think it's just the individual, and I think it's a confidence thing. I think that people, some, if you're.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: If you don't.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: If you're not being listened to, then you might feel like, well, I don't have anything good to say or anything to add. But if you do have something to add, you're not feeling heard. Well, then, yeah, you're gonna step up. You're gonna say, well, hey, I'm gonna go somewhere where they're gonna appreciate me. Right.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think. I think a keeper factor in all of this is that someone can feel, not heard, but act like. It reminds me of the book, the four agreements. Don't make assumptions and don't take anything personally. As two of the four agreements, I have it tattooed on me along with many things. I'm just, like, dropping book recommendations. Yeah. I think it's interesting what one person perceives as not being heard. Maybe the boss that day found out this morning that his wife has cancer. And so when an employee comes and says, I'm struggling with this thing, and they're like, oh, yeah, I, I'll get back to you. It might have nothing to do with the employee, but we make it about us because we are humans and that's what we do. And so I think so much of the work on employee and leader side and humans in general, is noticing what is the story that I've created about this and that takes ownership of again, reality as it is versus the story that I have created about it. And when I detach from story, it's like, oh, holy moly. We live in our heads with constructed stories. And one of the best tools in couples counsel counseling is to be able to go to your partner and say, hey, when you said this, the story that I created was that you don't care instead of you don't care about me. Right? And so I do. I think it's valid when someone feels unheard and contextually, what if it didn't have to do with you? And maybe that's part of the problem. Oh, it never has to do with me. But I just, again, there's so much nuance here. But when we are consistently taking everything personally and creating a story about it, we live in our own prison of hell.
[00:22:26] Speaker C: And I think that's a great way to give feedback too, from, from, from an organization or leadership perspective. When you're sitting down with, in a one on one, when you had said this or in this situation, when you did this, this is how we felt or this is how the organization felt. And I think that's a great way to, to start off rather than just coming out and saying, why did you do this? Or why did you do that? Or how come you did this?
[00:22:49] Speaker B: More of a comforting way of humanizing.
[00:22:53] Speaker C: Humanizing.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Humanizing, absolutely. That's Brown's whole point in all of her books is we've lost humanizing each other, especially in work. And her work has shifted from the individual to workplaces. And her most recent book, Strong Ground and Dare to Lead, are specifically about all of the questions you're asking me about. And there's just so many resources out there for employees, for leaders. And I struggle sometimes with patience when people are unwilling to explore those resources. I guess I'm just, just if I'm struggling with something, I want to do all of the things and read all of the books to try to figure out and change it. And so I think what I can work on is patience and empathy for people who are in pain and not doing anything about it. That's my task right now for sure.
[00:23:39] Speaker C: Hannah, if someone is listening today has been holding back, whether because of fear, self doubt, or past experiences, what is one message you hope they take away from the power of their own voice?
[00:23:53] Speaker B: This is a bit of a. A curveball. But I would say if it's possible to stop shaming yourself for holding back, start there. You are not going to shame yourself and judge yourself into openness, into vulnerability. And I think oftentimes it's like, how do I unlock my voice so I can really say how I feel? And what I mean is like, well, it starts with the story you're telling yourself about about yourself. And so this is where self compassion starts, is if you've noticed you haven't been being authentic and you're fearful and you're holding back. Can you practice self compassion? Can you treat yourself with the compassion and care that you would a small, scared child? Because that's the part of you that is not speaking up. So let's stop shaming ourselves.
[00:24:34] Speaker C: I love it. Stop. Let's stop shading ourselves. Absolutely. 100 agree on that.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: That's my podcast. If I had a podcast, it would be stop effing shaming yourself.
[00:24:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Would be a great name for a podcast for sure. I love it.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Anyone listening today, I'd like you to, like, share and follow this episode. I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. Hannah. What I admire about you is your energy, your willingness to listen, your balance and just your genuine nature. It is such a pleasure, like I said earlier, to know you, to be connected with you and have you on here again as a guest today. So thank you so much for joining us.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. Also, whether or not you put this in the episode, I also think it's cool that the way that we met was that what could easily be seen or what I could easily create a story about being one of the worst, most embarrassing experiences of my life. Quitting Survivor, which I think is a hilarious story and I love it and I own it. It's like that's actually how we met is like you're a fan of the show and you're reaching out and I, who am not a celebrity celebrity at all. Yeah, let's have real conversations about the workplace and all of these. That's so incredible. And it just to me, when you asked about free will and predetermined fate, to me that's the flow of the current. That's the flow of the way is like, who knows what's going to happen? But when I get out of the way, cool things happen. And to me, I think meeting you and connecting with you is just another example of that.
[00:25:57] Speaker C: Well, yes, absolutely. I'm a firm believer that we connect with people for a particular reason or we reach out to people or we have for. For whatever reason it is. We just never know what the reason is going to be or what the future holds for that connection or that relationship. Who knew that we were going to be gone this far into this connection? And I just love it. I just love when I can meet somebody and, and just have that awesome connection with them and, and continue to, to reach out to them, chat with them, see how things go and, and continue to collaborate with them. I think that's, that's key right there.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
[00:26:35] Speaker C: Oh, you're very, very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest today, Hannah, I'd like to thank you all for joining us today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everyone, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you
[00:26:49] Speaker B: have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout. To stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.
