Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to take a moment to share something that's been on my heart, something I've been working on behind the scenes for a while now. I'm officially writing a book. This book is called let's Be A Practical Guide to Leading Through Change. And it's deeply personal to me. It's built from real experiences. The uncertainty, the challenges, the moments where I didn't have the answers but had to lead. This isn't just a leadership book filled with theory. It's about navigating uncertainty when there's no clear direction, building internal clarity when everything around us feels unclear, having courageous conversations, even when they're uncomfortable, and leading with value, especially when it's the hardest to do so. I'm also going into topics that don't get talked about enough, like what it feels like to be challenged, overlooked, and even bullied as an adult in a workplace. And how those moments shape the kind of leader you become. This book is for anyone who's ever thought, how do I lead when I don't feel ready? How do I show up when I don't have all the answers? And how do I stay true to myself in environments that challenge me? If this is you, this book is for you. I'll be sharing more about the journey behind the scenes moments, and opportunities for you to be part of it as we go. So stay tuned, because this is more than just a book. It's a movement around how we lead through change together. All right, let's get to today's episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through the journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Our topic today is psychological safety, the leadership skill most leaders still miss. And our guest today is a fantastic human. Her name is Jenna Siric. Jenna, welcome to the show.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: You're very welcome. How are things with you? What's been energizing you these days? Give us the tea, the deets. Give us it all.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: The tea and the deets. Actually, I just got back from a fantastic trip to Las Vegas with all of my closest friends, so that is what's energizing me. Every time I'm with family friends, I always feel so much better. It's nice to step away from work, step away from the crazy busyness day today and just be with friends and family. So I literally, I, I just got back last week, so just finished like unpacking my suitcase and getting ready for this podcast.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: And it's always good to get away. We always need that just, even if just a day or two, just to unwind, get away, Forget the outside world. Just take it easy. It's super important.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Exactly. And get some sunshine because we are in Canada and it's cold here.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: So yeah, anytime we can get that is. Is a bonus for sure. So thanks so much for sharing how you're doing. Before we get into the nuts and bolts of this podcast or the episode, I have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guests to get things going. Are you ready for your seja?
[00:03:06] Speaker B: I am ready. I'm so curious what you're going to ask me.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: So your question today is, if practice makes perfect, but no one is perfect, why should we continue to practice?
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Ooh, that's a good one. Oh, wow. You're really putting me on the spot. I feel like you're right. Practice does make perfect. I mean, I think that it's so good to just keep practicing because as we practice, we fail. And I think that's actually probably a really great segue into the podcast today because it is okay to fail. And I think that you learn the most when you fail. So that way you can hopefully eventually perfect the craft that you're working.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: What a, what a great answer. And you were quick on it, so I like that. That's pretty cool.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Gotta be quick on my feet today.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate that and thanks so much for having fun with me to get us started. Who are you and what really drives you to do the work that you do?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: So who am I and what drives the work that I do?
I think we kind of need to back up a little bit and I will explain kind of how I got to where I am today. I think that's really important.
I actually have a background in nursing. That's really where I started. I really wanted to go into nursing like back when I was in middle school. Even back when I was younger, I always thought about probably going into the healthcare field or just kind of like helping people in general, which is a bit of a cliche answer, but I actually ended up going through the healthcare system many times myself for different health concerns, different issues, whether it be just for myself, but also for some of my, my family members. And what I started to realize, like throughout that whole process was that I didn't want patients to feel confused and I didn't want them to feel overwhelmed by the healthcare system. I actually wanted to be a nurse originally because I wanted to offer patients and empathy and a non judgmental approach. As a young kid going through the healthcare system, I got judged a lot by the doctors and nurses for the things that I was going through with my health. And so I just quickly learned. So I, well, I should say I went to school after that, decided, hey, I want to be a nurse. This is what I, I think I want to do. And so I just quickly learned once I graduated that the healthcare system, it is what it is. And I think that what I wanted and what the system really is are two very different things. So I was really able to kind of see firsthand how different team dynamics actually impact both the staff, the patient outcomes. So what I ended up doing was pursuing nursing for a couple of years, continue to do that part time. But I decided actually to go back to school and pursue a degree in healthcare management because I realized being frontline, kudos to all of those who work frontline, I realized that that's maybe not kind of where my strengths lie. So the work I do today is actually a very strong blend now of like nursing and a business background. And today I work for an air and ground ambulance company that operates in northern Canada. And so my goal today is really to continue working in hr, but making sure that we hire the right people to make sure that our patients are receiving the care that they deserve. Because that's really top of mind, like that's why I went into healthcare in the first place. So I want to continue to carry out that goal. So I think to answer your question on what drives the work that I do, I think it's really focused on building strong teams in really high pressure environments like health care.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: So I'm guessing that, and you can kind of confirm this as you were going through your nursing and as you were dealing in the situations within your career that you noticed that there was a lack of communication or people were not heard or taken seriously. What they're, they're being, they're telling the doctors and you wanted to, by seeing that, you wanted to fix that.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Exactly. That's where it all stemmed from. I felt like I would bring concerns to the doctors, to the nurses, and unfortunately my experience was that they would brush it off or they would tell me, go home or just take, take this painkiller or take this multivitamin, you'll be fine. And that was really frustrating because you'd go home and you'd still have the same problems and you felt, I mean, and back then when I was younger, there wasn't, you know, it was like dial up Internet, like it just wasn't what it was today in terms of all the information and resources that you can get your hands on. So I remember, you know, my parents really trying to push and advocate for me, but we weren't getting anywhere. And so I just remember feeling like I don't want anyone to feel the way I'm feeling as I sit in these doctor's offices. Right. They would pull me out of school, maybe in doctor's offices, like day after day trying to find certain remedies and therapies for things that I needed. And we just weren't getting anywhere. And so it wasn't until I was a lot older that I was able to get that support. Back then I just really felt like, I think it just got ingrained in me that something needs to change with the healthcare system. And then as I've grown up, you know, I've seen my grandparents go through the system and there's so much red tape and there's so many unknowns and a lack of people advocating for patients in the healthcare system. So I knew that I wanted to work, excuse me, work in hr. So that way I would actually be able to help implement policies, procedures and make change versus, you know, being on the front line doing the day to day work. I wanted to kind of remove myself from that work on the back end and see what can I do as an HR professional for the healthcare system.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: So, Jenna, that's, this is a great segue into the conversation here. What I want to hear from you is when you hear the term psychological safety, what does it actually mean in the workplace context?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think it's important to actually kind of read out the definition of what this means because I want everyone, all the listeners to be on the same page. And then I want to kind of dive into it a little bit more from my perspective. So pulling a definition from the American Psychological association, it's a shared belief among team members that the environment is safe for interpersonal risk taking, allowing employees to speak up, asking questions, being able to report mistakes or propose new ideas essentially without the fear of punishment, humiliation or rejection. So diving into that a little bit more, a lot of us are very aware of workplace safety in terms of physical harm. So like, hey, put on your ppe, put on your hard hat, put on your gloves, put on those safety goggles. But what a lot of us don't talk about is the psychological component of workplace safety. And of course, as an HR professional, this is really important for me. And so what I always drive within my teams is that it's important to ask the why and to be curious. That's really what I want to encourage our listeners today is that especially when you're looking for a job, you want to find a leader or a manager that allows you to ask the why, the be curious aspect of it. Because if you don't have that kind of manager, you can't build that relationship. You're not going to be able to actually build the team that you want, which I know we're going to get to a little bit more today. So really the biggest thing is with workplace psychological safety, it's important that our employees actually feel comfortable taking accountability.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: You're absolutely right when you talk about a showed belief that environment is safe and we all want an environment that's safe. We don't want to have an environment where we're, where we don't feel like we are in a safe place or that we have to worry about our whole day. What's going to happen or am I going to get into something with somebody today or something going to bad that's going to happen to me or you know, so we can't have that. And because if we do, then we're not concentrating on their tasks and the things that they need to do throughout the day. So it's super important what you say there. And for the listeners it is super important. Important that we understand that safety is the key to any organization.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Agreed. And like I want to add to that psychological safety. It's not about living within your comfort zone in the workplace. It's not about just finding a manager that says yes to everything that you do or that you just take their orders. It's actually really about being able to step out of your comfort zone every single day.
Right. Because you know, like that quote that says like do one thing a day that scares you. That's really what it should be like in the workplace. You want to be able to do something every day that scares you, that challenges you, that stretches you. And you can only do that if you have psychological safety within the workplace. Right. So I know that a lot of people like they want to earn someone's trust. But how I typically operate as a manager is I say everyone has a hundred percent trust from day one, even if I don't know you. Because that right There helps build the psychological safety piece. Right. So I'll tell my teams when I start in a new role or if I get somebody new on the team, hey, I trust you 100%. And it's not until something kind of goes sideways or you're dishonest or if something, you know, if you do something that would be malicious to the company, then that's when the trust starts to get broken down. So I really think your number one role as a leader and as a manager is to just trust your team 100% until they prove you otherwise. Because I find if you flip the other way and you say, you need to earn my trust, which I've been told, you know, when I have a manager and I'm on a team, right. Like, I'm not talking about my current employer, but just in general, I've been told, hey, you need to earn my trust, I like to flip that around and say, no, you have my trust trust. You're obviously in this role because whoever put you in this role or hired you trusted you for this position. So I really like to flip it around and say, no, you have 100% trust, and let's build on that and let's maintain it. And I think that's. That's a key to, like, helping. Helping an employer or helping that manager or leader get to that place of psychological safety.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Well, that's a good way to start things, and it's a good way to orientate them into the organization because they know they trust me. Well, then, yeah, I just need to keep things going. And, and, and like you said, build on that, because if you. If you do, then things are only going to get better than what they are. For sure.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're all adults in the workplace. And so like I just said, if. If someone's been hired into that role, I'm going to trust that the people before me hire this person for a reason. I'm going to do my very best to work with them, see what we can get done, and give that person 100% of my trust and attention as we.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Okay, Jenna, So now that we've established what it is, what I want to know from you is what happens. And we might have talked about this a little bit here, but I want to dig deeper here. What happens to a team when psychological safety is absent?
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think kind of the worst thing can actually happen when psychological safety is not absent. Because what starts to happen or what will happen is that people will stay quiet. They're going to hold back their ideas. Mistakes are actually going to try to be covered or hidden instead of addressed, which I think is a bit of a nightmare as a leader, because you might think, okay, all is well. And then six months down the road, you realize your team's been trying to cover up and hide. I, you know, hide the errors or hide ideas because they were afraid to come forward. And I think, I think that you've almost failed as a manager, if that's what's happening. Because your team should always be willing to say, you know what? This is the accountability piece I referred to at the beginning. You know what? I made a mistake. And as a manager, you need to say, no, it's our mistake, because everyone plays a part in this, right? Maybe it was my lack of training, maybe it was my lack of including them in a communication that created the error on that employee's end. So it's everyone's problem when there's. When there's an error that occurs. So really what's happening here is there's a lowering of the trust, there's weaker team collaboration. And nothing makes me happier as a leader than when I can see my whole team collaborating and getting along and sharing ideas. But the flip side of that is that they're not doing that at all. And the quiet employees on, let's say teams or zoom calls, they just fade to the background. You know, they start to turn their cameras off. They don't. They don't want to bring ideas. They're just afraid of their manager is really what happens. And I think for like, a smaller organization or a startup or like a, you know, a work hard, play hard type of industry, you're going to see that reduced innovation as well. So you really need to preach to your team that no idea is a dumb idea. Right? Like, we've all heard that before. But only the managers that really instill psychological safety are going to really preach that and believe it and bring it forward every single day in the work place.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: As you were talking, I was thinking of, like, in a meeting setting where the manager will bring something up and they'll say, where, you know, what do we all think? Let's hear some ideas. Not. And the person who is not feeling safe doesn't say anything. They're just like, well, it doesn't really matter what I have to say because they're not gonna listen to my idea anyways, so I'm not gonna bother to bring it up. So that's a situation where we don't want to be and we want them to Bring up. Like you said, there are ideas. There's no dumb idea, there's no, no bad idea. But let's hear it. And there might be a little bit of a tweak that we can use for that idea, but let's, let's hear it or not be afraid to bring it up.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Exactly. As a leader, it's your job to take in all the ideas and then funnel them to, like, what makes sense. Because, you know, we have that 40,000 foot view of the organization and what's really going on. You know, somebody on your team might have an idea that doesn't exactly align with where the company's at, but it's also something you can write down and keep it in your back pocket for, for the future. Absolutely. I think that you're going to come up with the, the wildest and craziest of ideas when you have like a brainstorming session with your team. But that actually can be a really fun environment. A lot of people, I think they kind of enjoy that. Like, let's just throw things up on the whiteboard, let's throw things into the chat, like, let's see what we can do here.
And that's really where you're going to have the best of ideas. I always find if I take a step back and listen to my team and say, hey guys, this is the problem that I'm having, what do you think? Typically, somebody's going to have a piece of the puzzle. I mean, we've all been raised differently. We all see the world so differently. We have different work experiences, different educational backgrounds, and so everyone's going to have a perspective. It might not necessarily be the one that you want to use, but you can definitely take pieces of that idea and create something that could be magical for the organization, something that's really going to push the organization.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Nicely put. I love your perspective there, Jenna. Can you have high accountability and high psychological safety at the same time?
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Absolutely. 100. And I think you need both because it's important to know that psychological safety is not lowering our standards. Right. It's actually helping us maintain or even increase those standards in the workplace because it's going to enable honest conversations and feedback. Your role as a leader is to learn and educate yourself on how to handle feedback because you're going to get positive and negative feedback from your team. And, and it's not always an easy conversation. Right. It's funneling of information, but that's your role as a leader. So really making sure that accountability, like accountability is going to ensure that performance is followed through. Right. So checking in on your team, seeing how they're doing, it's never about micromanagement. I know that's, that's definitely a hot topic in the HR world right now. So there are times when it calls for that, depending on the scenario. But if what we're talking about today is just that psychological safety and high accountability, it's about trusting your team again and saying, hey, I'm going to leave this with you. Here's, here's the deadline. Does that work for you? If it does, great. Let's, let's talk a few days prior to that deadline, make sure everything's good to go and let's get the ball rolling. Right. And so I find that high performers that feel that they have high psychological safety in the workplace, they actually want to perform. Well, that's, that's at least been my experience.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: It makes sense what you said there, for sure. And I think when you're talking about standards, it's super important because if we don't have those things, then, yes, we're not going to have high standards. And that's when things go, go. They bought them out and they. And you never see the results that you're looking for.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And I think if you want the team members to have like a strong connection with one another, like I said earlier, that comes down to the trust and accountability I mentioned earlier. Because it's not just about accountability from like leader to employee, but also employee to employee as well. Because, you know, nothing burns bridges faster than when you have a high performer in a group of not so high performer performing employees or you have one bad apple. So it's important that if you do have psychological safety in the workplace, I encourage all our listeners to start doing that if they haven't already. But know that you can also have high accountability and actually it's really good if they go hand.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: So, Jenna, why is psychological safety especially critical when it comes to diversity and inclusion?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: I think diversity without safety means that voices are not going to be heard again. People kind of fade into the background, hope to not be called upon in meetings, hopefully hope that you don't point them out for certain presentations or for new upcoming projects. So I think, like, the more quiet and those timid employees are definitely going to be the first ones to fade into the background, just hoping not to be seen. And your team members, they're not going to be comfortable sharing different perspectives. So kind of going back to what I said a few minutes ago, everyone has a different educational background. Everyone has a different way that they were raised. Some people come from different countries and you know, they, they moved to Canada and so they're bringing such unique perspectives that I think are so needed in the workplace place today. Especially I think coming back to the healthcare comments that I said at the beginning there, it's important that we, we get lots of different inputs and ideas because our healthcare system needs change and the more people that can bring new ideas to say, hey, in my country or in my personal experience, this is what I dealt with, or these are some ideas I have, the better it's going to be. I think that you have to remember the greatest gift you can receive as a leader is that there's so many different perspectives and feedback that you need to take in, especially when you're rolling out a new program or a policy. So at the end of the day, most team members want to excel and they want leaders that can help facilitate that. So the real question is, are you going to be a leader that helps facilitate that or are you going to stall people's growth by not allowing psychological safety in the workplace?
[00:20:35] Speaker A: I love that you said that, Jenna, because there's a lot of conversations I've had where people within the organization, I'm not just talking about, I'm not talking about managers or leaders here, but people in the organization where they're like, well, that person doesn't care about their job or that person doesn't want to do the work or they don't want to, they see that we have extra work here, they don't want to put the extra work or their time in. And, and I think that's something that I think is wrong.
I don't think we should assume something about anybody or anything. You talked about a little bit earlier about getting to know people on your team, the organization, and when you do that, then the assumptions go away. And when the assumptions go away, then the rapport starts to build. Because that's what we're looking for ultimately is to have that rapport so that everything functions the way that it should, right?
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You want, you want to build like a well oiled machine. Right. I guess is what you're trying to say. And I think psychological safety actually allows inclusions to happen because without it, you're going to row in different directions or you're going to row without purpose, which doesn't really get you very far. You need to row in the same direction and you need to understand the why and you need to have purpose within your team.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Absolutely. Because if we don't have purpose. What are we doing exactly?
[00:21:51] Speaker B: What am I doing in this job if I don't have a purpose?
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Jenna, before we wrap up here, what is one takeaway? Do you like our listeners to take away from this episode?
[00:22:01] Speaker B: I like that question. I think that I want to leave the viewers with this point. Is that psychological safety, it's built through everyday interactions. So every small interaction, or I should say every interaction, no matter how big or small, it's more about consistency. As a leader, people are watching what you're doing each and every day. Your team is watching you. And the way you present yourself in the workplace, the way you operate at work, that's really what's going to build the foundation of a trust filled working relationship. So your team, they look to you when something goes wrong as a leader and how you handle yourself, that will let the team know if they feel comfortable speaking up. The way that as leaders, the way we handle ourselves, if we're composed and we're consistently engaged and listening, they're going to go, oh, yeah, you know what? My manager, my leader, they're going to be okay. If I bring this forward, although it might not be an easy conversation, they're going to hear me out. So I really think it's just, we need to remember that it's just built a little bit every day. And for listeners who are listening to this podcast today, it's not that you have to go into work tomorrow and change and overhaul everything that you're doing, but just start by the little things. Something that might have upset you today. Hopefully you can take a step back and think, this doesn't need to upset me as much. I want my team to be able to bring these things forward. So stay composed and just ask yourself, how can I support my team with whatever might be going on in the workplace?
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Stay composed. You're absolutely right. When we are running around, we're like a chicken with our heads cut off and we are like not organized and flustered. Well, then yes. And people are gonna be like, it's kind of like the captain of a boat. Right. If the captain.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Of a boat is not composed, well, then there's gonna be something that's gonna happen bad on that ship. Right. So it doesn't matter the situation. They need to be composed. They need to say, okay, well watch out for this or speed up or you know, when, about 10 minutes, slow down, whatever type thing. But so everyone's kind of looking to them. So if we are like that, there's nothing that can go wrong. I, I believe.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Well, I think to add to that, like, I love that analogy and I think it reminds me of like when you take a plane ride, travel a lot for work. So I feel like this is a great example. But like that, put your seat, put, put your seatbelt on. When that sign comes on the airplane, there's a bit of turbulence. Like imagine if the pilot came on and was freaking out and saying, oh my gosh, put your seatbelt on. We might, this plane might go down. This plane might crash. Everyone on the plane is going to start freaking out and panic. So, but they don't do that. Right? So as a leader in the workplace, even though you might, it might feel turbulent and you don't know if this plane is going down. At the end of the day, it's about everyone's safety on the plane. It is about making sure that they, they land in a safe location. That's what this is all about. So I hope that the listeners can take that and hopefully that's lots of food for thought today.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. My call to action today would be a like Share and follow this episode. Jenna, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. What I admire about you is your heart, your dedication, your positivity, your genuine nature and your true outgoing personality. It's been an absolute pleasure to not only connect with you, but also to have this conversation with you today. So thank you so much for joining us.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm so honored that I was selected as a guest speaker today on your podcast. Those are some very nice words. Thank you so much, Andrew, for having me.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: You're very welcome.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: A great day to all the listeners. Thank you so.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: And I'm sure you're wishing it to you too as well, Jenna. On behalf of myself and my guest today, Jen, I'd like to thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember everyone that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything. You have been listening to.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content. Hit Subscribe.
