Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's be diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who have supported me through this journey.
Today, our topic is dangers of not hiring a diverse workforce.
I felt like this was a great topic because of the title of my podcast, but also my interest of everything and anything diverse. It's a super important topic, and I'm so glad to delve into it today. My guest today is Ashley Phillips. Welcome to the show, Ashley. I am so pleased to have you on today.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: Yeah, hi, Andrew. I'm really excited. I can't wait to have this conversation with you today. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: You're very, very welcome. How are things with you? What's new in your world? What's going on? Give us the deets. Give us everything.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I am loving summertime. Hopefully, like other people, we live, we live in the mountains. We've been canoeing and hiking and just enjoying all the beautiful sunshine and just getting outdoors on the weekends, and we're having a blast.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Which is all part of summer, right? Getting outdoors.
I don't know how it is in your area, but here in Canada when it's summer, we enjoy it because winter, we pretty much hibernate because there's lots of snow and lots of cold. So we, we, we go out when we have to in the winter time. In the summertime, we can't, you can't keep us inside.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: That's right. It's better to be outside. It feels like a recharge every time you go outside for the weekend. I can't get enough of it right now. Right.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: It's funny because I was talking to somebody yesterday and we were talking about when we were kids and I, how we have to, how we have to adult now. Because when I, you know, summertime, we used to love. I mean, I used to spend my day at the community pool up the street from my house. I would get up just in time, you know, I'd get up a little bit later, sleep in, you have breakfast, and you head to the pool at noon when it opened. You stay there till 05:00 when it would close for dinner and adult swim. I go home, have supper, have a quick bite to eat, and you were back there at 630 there till 09:00 you went home, change, and then everybody was outside playing tag or whatever, just kind of hanging outside.
But that was the fun of the summertime. Now, you know, we, you know, we can't, we can't. As we're adults, we can't spend all day at the pool and we can't, we have to, we have to adult these days.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: That's right. I used to roller skate all the time as a kid and I'd be outside all day long roller skating. And now I get to like, go to target in the grocery store. You know, it's not as great.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's like the big thrill. Like, oh, I get to get out today. I get to, and I get to go out my own and I get to go to Walmart.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And I have to budget too. I can't even buy anything I want when I'm there, even though I'm an adult. They finally said when I'm an adult, I'm buying that.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying your summer. I'm glad to hear that things are going well on your end. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today, Ashley?
[00:03:32] Speaker A: I am. I'm really curious about this handrail. I'm really excited. This is gonna be cool.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: So your question today is if you could have a lifetime supply of anything, what would it be and why?
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Oh, no. Too much of anything is not a good thing. A life. A lifetime supply. Oh, my gosh.
I feel like I should pick something responsible.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: We just talked about being adults. I feel so much. You could, you could pick something. You could pick something fun. It's okay. It's okay. We're talking amongst all of our friends listening today, so you can pick something fun.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: I'm completely honest. Of the two things that popped into my head very first.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. I would love it. It's probably, is probably the best.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: We have this mix of like childhood Ashley and adult Ashley going on. Adult Ashley said gasoline, ok?
And childhood actually said popcorn. Like that is what popped into my head the most. I would eat popcorn every day if I could. I was like, oh, popcorn, that's what I want. But a lifetime supply. I feel like fuel is more practical.
And I would also have a lot more money in my pocket too, if it was fuel. I don't know what gas is like in Canada, but it is not cheap these days.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: No, it's not cheap. It's not cheap here either. Well, I love the fact he gave both, both versions. I love that for sure. I mean, I think, I mean, I think anybody would probably say in the adulting realm these days. Gasoline for sure. But I love that you went in the childhood realm. I am a popcorn fanatic since I've been young, and it's something that I look forward to, especially when we go to the movies. That's the first thing. And actually, every once in a while, depending on where we go for grabbing a bite to eat for supper, we'll stop in a movie cinema and I'll just walk in and I will get a bag of popcorn from the cinema and take it home with us. If we're gonna watch a movie at home or even just watch shows at home, like, why not? What better way to do that than have movie theater popcorn?
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah, you're. You're my kind of person.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Like, we are so on the same page with that.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Like, you know what? You can. It's funny because you can make popcorn at home, but it just doesn't taste as good as the movie theater.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Correct. You can. And I even have an air popper. Like, I'm bougie with it. It's not just a microwave in the bag. Like, actually the whole, the whole setup. You're right. It's still not the same.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah, same here. We have a popcorn machine here. Throw it in and take it from, you know, but it just never, it tastes good. And even if you buy a bag of popcorn from the store, it's still good. But it's just not the movie theater popcorn.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: No matter what. You get it.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: I totally get it. Well, thanks for having so much fun with me, actually. I really appreciate that. Why don't we start off with you telling us a little bit about you, your story and your. Why.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you, Andrew. I'm getting into it here. So I'm. Hi, everybody. I'm Ashley Phillips. I'm really excited to be chatting with Andrew today, and I hope today helps. Helps you in a career pivot is kind of the, the culminating piece to it and how that fits into a diverse workforce. But I started out after college as a high school social studies teacher, believe it or not, and I did that. And there was a lot of things that I liked about it and kind of have it been. Explaining it to people is about year five. I was like, I don't know. I don't know if this is for me anymore. There seem to be quite a few issues that I just can't seem to overcome. Too many blockers, too many barriers, too many feelings of being depleted and burnout and financial. It was taking its toll having that as my career. And so I switched by year seven. I was able to get a break and we can talk more about how exactly I did that. But I was able to get a break and I got into tech and from there started at a very early entry level role and over the last ten years built up to being a vice president of a sales enablement revenue operations team. So that's what I've done career wise.
I made the switch and I loved it immediately. Andrew, like, I couldn't get enough of this new lifestyle. I got out of debt. I had more time for my family, I had more time for my friends, I had healthier relationships. Everything seemed to be changing as this catalyst of changing my career. So I started writing it down and ultimately ended up writing a book. We'll talk more about that later, too. But the whole idea of writing that is to simply share the wealth, other people to find kind of what I'll describe as the liberation and the happiness that I found in changing my career. And I want that for other teachers, I want that for other people that are feeling stuck or downtrodden. And this economy is really tough right now. It's hard to change your job. It's hard to get a job, especially if you've been laid off. So I understand that. So I wanted a tool or a resource that would help people.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: So much stuff that I want to pack in here from what you said, first of all, I love when you said share the wealth. So I am very much, I just said 2 seconds ago that you loved our thinking on the popcorn. I love your thinking on sharing the wealth. I am very much someone like that, especially in business and in work. And in the workplace, I feel like there's so many people that want to, you want to get, you want to move up and you want to grow and you want to create opportunities for yourself. But there's so many, so many more opportunities to work with other people and to collaborate, whether it be in the workplace or whether it be in business or being an entrepreneur and collaborating with other entrepreneurs. There's so many opportunities for that. And just a lot of people don't feel like they, they need to or that they, it's a good idea because of the, I'm doing air quotes for people who can't see, but for the competition, like, you know, you know, we're competing against each other when, if, you know, why not work with somebody? So at work, why not team with your co worker and the both of you are successful and why not team with other businesses and both of you are successful. Like you just said, we have a tough economy, so why not help your neighbor, help somebody that you've met, somebody on LinkedIn. Why not help that person, collaborate with them? And the both of you are successful. So I just love that. And the other thing that kind of caught my attention was the fact that you were talking about getting out.
It's been a theme for so many people that I talked to. Teachers is one. And the amazing thing for me is Hrsa. There's a lot of people that are getting out of HR and they're changing and going on their own. And it's. It's amazing to see it. I knew it was happening and I knew it was happening for teachers, but having this conversation and having more and more conversations and hearing it, it's becoming so real to me.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the foundation of what you said, there is something that I encourage all people to do, but especially that the teachers that I mentor. So, yeah, I mean, I have the book. Like, there's no, I don't want to hide it. Like, the book is for sale, right. It's one thing that I had to put together and it cost me money. And so the book is definitely something that takes, that I do ask that people pay $35 to get, but all the mentoring, all the coaching that comes from it, I do that because I want to give back. I don't, there's not a DM and LinkedIn that I don't turn down to help. And I encourage them, like, hey, this is how you can. Like, to your point, this is how you can network. You should work smarter, not harder, and start to build. Who are the people I can collaborate with? I think sometimes people feel stuck, Andrew, that they don't exactly know who to reach out to. They don't necessarily know what working looks like together. And because it is or can be highly competitive, there's maybe a little bit of fear of I'll be rejected. And so that's one of the things I work on with teachers is just not everyone's going to say yes, and that's okay. That's their choice, right. So move on to somebody who will say yes and then work with those people and network in that way. And so I'm with you on that. It's always better to me to work in groups. I always used to tell my students, like, more brains are better than one. I was a big advocate of group work, partner work. You want to do it solo, cool. But you want to fill it out with a couple of people and share. Like, you all still have to take the same test, but you can prepare together.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: You don't have to be alone.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Right. I have a motto or mantra that I've developed since the start of 2024, and that is, I'm not afraid to hear the word no and say the word no. And not that I was afraid of those two of no in those two situations before, but I feel like a lot of people are, like you said, are afraid to ask people because they're afraid to hear the word no. And some people are afraid to say no because they're people pleasers and they want to. And they don't know when to say no. So it's been something that I've had in my head, and I. It's been my mantra for 2024, and it's super. It's been super beneficial and helpful for me.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I love it that the takeaway is you have to take care of yourself. If the right thing to do for you is to be bold and ask, then go for it. And if you're the person being asked if the right thing for your mental health, your sanity, the space in your time, your boundaries, whatever it is, if saying no is the right thing for you, be empowered to say that just as much.
[00:13:14] Speaker B: And I love when you say, you know, the right thing. So, you know, we're talking about diversity issues and why they're so important.
One of the reasons why I feel like it's so important. So I took a course when I, years ago in diversity inclusion, and in the course, they had a topic or an assignment where we had a picture of somebody, and the assignment was say exactly what you see in this picture. So it was a person. You couldn't tell if they were a man or a woman. You couldn't tell if they were homeless or not. You couldn't tell if they were under a bridge or on a highway. And, you see, you had to kind of write what your feelings were. And that was the first thing that kind of got my attention. As far as diversity inclusion is the assumption. Part of, you know, people assume, assuming that, you know, we're, you know, someone is in a certain situation or that someone doesn't want to go to work or that someone, you know, is a certain ethnicity. So they. That's the way that they're thinking or that they always believe or the way that they do things. So that was kind of like my first inkling, and then it made me kind of think actually of a lot of things, and especially my childhood. So I'll share with you, and I'm sure a lot of the listeners have heard me talk about this. So I grew up in a. My parents were of mixed race, so my father was from Barbados, he was colored, and my mother was white, and she was from Montreal, Quebec, so she was french Canadian. So living that, it was different because their. Their parenting was different, because they grew up a certain way from their parents. So it was different. The food was different as far as what they specialized. And it kind of this topic there, this course and assignment that I did make me think back of some of the stuff that I saw when I was younger. So, you know, taking, you know, having a friend coming home from school and, you know, saying, oh, hey, Johnny, this is my mom. And, you know, they didn't really say anything. They didn't make any bad looks, but they kind of had this kind of confused look on their face like, hey, this is. That's his mom.
I don't. I don't get it. So, you know, you kind of think about that. I probably noticed it when I was younger, but, you know, just kind of guess taking, you know, doing diversity inclusion courses, it kind of has opened up my mind and thinking about all those things and then now future and then looking at its helped me in certain situations and things that I have seen and gone through throughout my career.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
When you're. When you're speaking, I can think of, you know, talking about and checking your internal biases. Right. And that takes a lot of work. Like, I know there are a lot of times where I sit and I am in, whether it's a work situation or a social situation, it. You know, wherever I am, there are times where I. You have a gut reaction, and then there are times that I find myself, I have to sit with. Why did I have that reaction? Because sometimes it's just innate, right? It's not like you. You meant to do anything mean or derogatory or it might have even been a positive one. You know, who knows? Like, you sit with whatever the situation was, but checking those internal biases that we have are really important. And I think in order to make it so where you can understand at a deeper level and relate to more people, more backgrounds, you do have to do the reflection work on that. And so, as you were talking, that's what I think of. There have been times in my life where I've had to been like, huh? Why did I think that? Like, why was that where my brain went first? You know, like, what. What was that all about? And so, like I said, sometimes it's been good. Sometimes it's been not so good.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: But sitting there and thinking with that definitely leads to a path of understanding. But it does take the work. Like you said, like looking at that picture and checking your. What did you write down? And checking your own internal bias is really important.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. So. So as we talk about this, I'd like to. I want to get your thoughts. What are the risks of not having a diverse workplace?
[00:17:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, we were talking in prep. Like, we're not going to like, go into why it's important. Like, it's 2024, Andrew. Like, we know it's important. Like, that's why you have this amazing podcast. Right? Like, we, we can all agree on that. But, you know, to me, what happens when you don't have that diversity? And I don't want to minimize any of the, what I consider maybe some of the core issues of why the diversity movement and equity and inclusion began in the workforce. I don't want to minimize anything, but I do think that it's okay to expand that into other types of backgrounds. And so when I look at companies that don't have a diverse workforce, I do see that they struggle more in the market than not, you know, and not that I'm, you know, this glorified expert. And I've been in business for, you know, 45 years and I've seen it all that that's not me. Right. But I have been in schools and campuses of different types over the years. I have been in, you know, five different companies over ten years. And businesses that lack diversity don't do as well, flat out in my mind. And I think that there's a lot of ways when I say they don't do as well. I think that revenue wise, if your sales team isn't diverse and reflective of the market you're selling to, you're not relating to your buyer. If your customer success or account management function, whatever you want to call it, if they don't reflect what your customer looks like, you're not going to relate and you're not going to do as well. Right. And you can say that kind of in all aspects of the company and you end up kind of creating an echo chamber for yourself. I think if you're the business leaders, if you're the, whether it's the board, you know, the VC, the PE firm level or the C suite level, or even like the higher managers, whether you have, you know, EVPs or senior vice presidents, whatever that looks like, where you are, when they don't make an effort to have a diverse workforce that is equitable to different types of backgrounds because it needs to look different depending upon who's coming to you to be hired.
I do think you are less successful. I think you end up having this echo chamber of, we have the same kind of background, the same kind of work experience, the same levels of expertise, supposedly. And it's like, okay, so you have a whole bunch of people that know that one thing. What about everything else that makes up our globe, our society, our markets, our products, our solutions? And I just. I don't think they do as well. I've worked at some that are diverse and are great, and I worked at some that weren't, and it was like, I don't want to be here anymore.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: So I love that you love what you said, because I feel like.
So I always say to people, or I always say that, you know, the minute that we afraid or the minute that we stop learning something or say that we know it, all I feel is when we become hoodwinked. So, you know, we're talking about diversity and inclusion. There's so many different aspects of it that we need to continue to learn. And if we continue to learn them and they're gonna be ever changing, there's always gonna be stuff that's gonna come up. So if we continue to learn it, then I think we will be a better workplaces and people as well in our. In our regular environments, I think will be better if we continue to learn it. But like I said, as soon as we stop and soon as we say, oh, you know, I took a. You know, I'd be like me saying, well, I took a course in diversity inclusion. I have a certificate in it. I don't need to know anything else. Now. Like, that would be silly of me to say I'm continuously learning any articles on leadership or diversity inclusion or anything, or any chance I have of having a conversation with somebody about this stuff, I'm.
I'll take it any day of the week.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It is ongoing work.
Sometimes it's not the easiest work to do, but it is critical. I mean, I think that without addressing it in your. In your company, I think companies that refuse to make moves or, you know, companies that maybe just give it lip service, say they want to do stuff or maybe put it in their plan because they feel like they need to or they have to or they should, but then don't act on it, that you're not doing the right. I mean, that's all for not. You're just flat out not doing the right thing if all you're doing is documenting it in a business plan, but not actually doing anything to ensure that you are hiring a diverse worker force.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Right? Absolutely. So now that we know, so now that everybody's listening, now that we know what the risks are, how do we address those situations? Because I know that one of the things is that people are afraid to speak up because they don't. They feel like that they're. I always say, you know, we want to be in situations where we are seen, heard, valued, and understood, but there's a lot of situations where people aren't. So how do we go about doing that?
[00:22:46] Speaker A: So this can be tough, Andrew, like, I do understand. I do have an answer for you. I do have some stories, a personal experience I can tell, but I want to front load it with saying, like, this is really hard for some people, especially if you're in a really, you know, I don't want to say toxic environment, but maybe not the most supportive environment. There is a spectrum of how unsupportive you are where. So everybody's work environment is going to be different.
But to me, the solution and what I've had to do is be really brave and speak up. It's the people that are in the role. It's their responsibility to do it. And I say responsibility, that's a big word, and I believe in that. So, for example, when I was an individual contributor, I'd try, you know, I'd be part of employee resource groups on diversity. I'd be part of, you know, programs and teams that wanted it.
But sometimes that doesn't, that doesn't make the impact you want, right? They're like, oh, yeah, we're going to let the employees get together. Cool, cool. You know, and you don't feel like you get anywhere.
And so as I became more of, like, a director level, more of a vice president level, where I'm in charge of hiring, I decided to be that change. And so I went to, I got some of. It's a little bit of luck, I'll tell you, I got lucky. One of the HR leaders I worked for was very invested in making our company more diverse. We, the company was not diverse at all. I'm sure it's business. You can close your eyes and see exactly what I'm, what I'm talking about when I say there was lack of diversity. And he was awesome. He. He let me do something different. I went and I found a different recruiting firm that found non traditional backgrounds and put these folks through boot camps for a couple of different roles, and that's who I hired. I didn't hire the same type of person that had been coming through the doors of the company. And so.
But that had to be approved because that was a different budget and it was a different recruiting contract. And so I did have to find an ally within my company, but we worked together, and I actually hired a couple of folks in a different way to get different backgrounds, to get more diversity in terms of orientation and race, ethnicity, and, you know, ability, background from experience, and we brought them in, and I thought we were a better workplace for it. And so. But it is my job to speak up. It's not always easy. There's a lot of times I am the only woman in a boardroom, and, you know, it's like sweaty palms, and you're like, okay, but you have to speak up. Right? You have to, even though it's difficult. And so I do look to leadership to help solve that, and I look to leaders to also not let those employee resource groups just be something that the employees do again, because it's on paper and we say, oh, we care about it because we do this. If they're coming up with ideas and you're not implementing them, if you're not acting on them as the leaders, to me, you're not doing part of your job. Leadership is meant to address those things.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: I love when you're saying, speak up, I agree 200%. I feel like there's got to be a buy in as well. So I was speaking to somebody yesterday, and they are trying to get some more diversity into their company, and she's dealing with a lot of. With the leadership team of company. And she was telling me that it's taken a while for them to. She's had several meetings with them, probably, and she's been there for, you know, a few years now, and she's been having meetings with that, the leadership team there for probably a good six months. And it's just like the last meeting there, they had the. But they have finally have a little bit of a buy in. So she says, I'm not expecting the world to change.
She's. I just needed them to buy in and say, okay, we're, you know, let's continue the conversation of this. We're in, you know, let's continue conversation of, how do we. How do we do this and how do we get things going? That's what was important to her. But before that, she wasn't getting it at all. They were kind of like, well, why do we need this or why is it so important or what have you. So it can be hard, it's hard to get people to understand why is important for everybody to buy in.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a tool that whether you're in, whether I'm coaching a sales rep on making a sale, whether I'm coaching a teacher on trying to build a network, or even this woman you're talking about, when things don't happen overnight and you have to feel like you're continuously repeating the same thing over and over, which is obnoxious to you when you know it's a good thing, you know it's beneficial and you're like, and I have to explain myself again, and you want to just like knock your head against a wall. Feels a little more pleasant than having another meeting about this.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: So it doesn't matter where you, where you are with that. But the tip is, and what I tell people is use professional persistence.
Things don't happen overnight in business. They just don't. There's too much money at stake. There's usually people way, like, they're not operating in the level I am. They're way above me. Whether it's, you know, the stockholders and the shareholders that have certain types of equity that are better and bigger than my types of equity. I mean, there's all kinds of people that are at this higher level and there's just too much at stake for businesses to move fast. Even smaller startups, it's hard for them to move truly, really fast on some things, even if they might say we're agile and that's all great. But keep in mind, professional persistence, it may be obnoxious to have to stay with it for you.
But Andrew, like you said, if you really care about it and you're passionate about it, sticking with it, you can't go wrong if you're trying to help other people, especially if they don't look like you, sound like you have the background as you, because being diverse in your workforce is the right, it is the right thing to do in my mind. So keep that professional persistence to it. You know, it's okay if people say no, but that doesn't mean you have to give up. That's just a no for right now on some things. Keep at it.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: I love that professional persistence. Do you have like an, I'm sure the listeners would want to know or want to hear, like, do you have an example or a story of where you, where you use that?
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Yeah, this podcast is a really good example. I've been able to I've been really happy and surprised in the last few months of people who have given me a platform to talk about how valuable I think teachers are outside of the classroom. And, you know, I really do think that teaching is a foundational pillar of our society. Like, don't get me wrong, we need great teachers. We really do. But if we're not going to pay them, if we're not going to give them resources, if we're not going to support them to the point that I've talked to teachers having heart palpitations and losing their hair, I've talked to teachers who are borderline living in poverty. That's not okay. And if that's your situation, it's okay to make a change in your life. You can leave teaching behind if that's what you're looking at. Right. I know there are happy teachers, and that delights me. Right. So I just want to say that, too. Like, we need good teachers. But when you talk about professional persistence, just recently it's been trying to get a platform for that because people don't want to hear that I'm encouraging some teachers to leave. And so this is a yes. Like, I'm so glad you said yes. We're on this podcast, but there have been plenty that are, like, we don't want to discuss that at all. And so something very just as simple as trying to get the word out to help people and show their support is an example. But, yeah, I mean, in sales, like, I've got stories galore where, you know, if we get a lead coming in from marketing and there's been a no and a drag your feet and a drag your feet, and it's taken nine months to close the deal. But that's been professional persistence. Right. To meet that. That revenue target. So there's stories like that, and I think just the biggest example I can give you is my career change. Like I said, I wanted to leave teaching in year five, and I didn't until in the middle of, or at the start of year seven. That's some professional persistence. That was a multi year journey of reflecting on the why am I unhappy? What's going to make me happy now that I know what's going to make me happy? How do I make those changes? And putting that all together took years, right? And then there was the decision, and then it still took six to nine months of actually getting the job. When I was like, I'm done. I'm ready to change. That was another six, six, nine months of professional persistence to get a new job.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: I am a firm believer that leadership, a lot of people have this mindset that a leader has to be the leader of an organization, and that's not my mindset. So leaders come for, to me, come in different ways, shapes or forms. So, yes, you can be a leader of an organization, but you can be a leader of, as a coach on a sports team, you can be a leader sitting beside a co worker. You can be a leader for that co worker. You can. I talk a lot about parent leadership because I feel parents are leaders to their children. They are molding their children into the people that they want to be or they want them to be or that they feel that would be, that would be successful in society, in our world. And I believe that teachers are leaders as well because they are teaching your kids when they are not with you, they're teaching and they're molding your kids as well to help them to develop not just the learning skills and the school smarts, but also the teaching and to be creative, to have that creativity, to be innovative, and the importance of being seen, heard, valued and understood. So I love that you said teachers. I am a huge fan of teachers. I have lots of friends who are teachers, and I admire them and I tell them all the time. And I was happy to have you on here today because I, you know, I'd be a hypocrite if I said no to you and have my podcast be called let's be diverse. Because my goal is to have convert. You know, one of my goals is to have diverse conversations with diverse guests. So if I was. If I just said no to you, like I said, that would be super, super wrong with of me to do.
[00:33:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. And I. I love your thoughts, Andrew, on leadership. But there's a actually, like a call out in the. In the book, and I got to give a shout out to the graphic designer that I found. Her name is Mel Wise. She's incredible. She blew me away. How beautiful the inside of this book is. The book looked terrible. As I was typing it up in my little visuals, it looked so bad. It was so bad. And she did an incredible job with it. And one of the things she did is she had a call out. She surprised me. It's really pretty, and it's in a specific chapter, but it actually says, I wrote, like, you can lead from any seat leadership because I'm encouraging teachers to start honing in their leadership skills and thinking about, to your point, all the different ways you can be a leader because a job title is not leadership. Right. Your actions and what you do for people is leadership. And so that's one of the pieces. Advice. Pieces of advice that I give is, how are you demonstrating that you're a leader in your role? You don't need a job title to do it. What are you doing? I tell people you can lead from any seat. Right.
Absolutely. I love what you said about it.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: I appreciate that. So you mentioned your book. So.
So what advice do you give do you have for teachers and employers when it comes to including teachers to diversity plans?
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's twofold. We'll start with it with the teachers. And I did have a subset of beta readers who had nothing to do with teaching. Read it. And he's like, wow. Learned a lot about my personal brand and building one. I don't have one. I didn't know that I needed one. It's like, so you said teachers, but I actually used your same checklists for myself, and I updated. And I have a new way to build a network. Right. And they're not teachers. They just substituted teacher with whatever job title they have. And so I do think that there are plenty of things in there that would help a non teacher. But you're right, I am focused on helping that group just because personally, that's who I'm passionate about helping with my background.
But I basically walked them through a three step journey. It's one of those.
I'll give a shout out to my friend Shannon, who helped beta read and test the book for me. And she said, ashley, as I read it, it was great. You know how in the beginning of a book, like a fantasy book, there's always a map of the world that you're looking at, the country, you know, this fictional place that doesn't exist. They give you, like, a visual was like, yeah. She's like, you need one. And I was like, you're right, I do. Shannon, like, incredible. Like, that's so genius. And so I've been referring to it now ever since then, is the book is basically the roadmap. And there is a visual of a roadmap that walks teachers through this journey. And it starts with the journey out teachers that are on the fence about leaving and not quite sure we address that first. Like, is leaving right for you? You may do the reflection work and think, you know what? This isn't so bad. There are some things that I need to tweak, some things that I need to probably address, but overall, it's still for me, and that's cool. There are teachers also that are like, I was done six months ago. I need help now. And so I'm like, well, then skip chapter one and get right to chapter two. But the first section is called the journey out. And it's a lot of the reflection work of, you know, like I said, it's going to sit with, like, what is making you unhappy? But also, what are you really good at? I bet you're really good at things every single day and there's things that you love and you're passionate about. So we do that work, and then the second section basically helps them take that self assessment and we start to discover together what can you be doing while teaching to help build, because this economy is not the economy to quit a job cold turkey and not have anything lined up if you can.
And so the best time to find a job is while you have a job. And so we address what can you be doing all along the way as you're prepping? And then we take all of that and we together decide, what is the job fit for you? What is the company that's right for you? Is it a small startup? Is it a large enterprise? What do you care about when it comes to company culture? And we, and I give them some tips and tricks to try and start assessing company culture. So then once they have that list of, you know, roles and industries and companies that they want to go after, then we start to talk about building your personal brand. How are you going to tell your story and then start building a network? And then the third phase, of course, resumes. I think they're like a necessary evil. So we do address the resume, but we basically talk about what are the transferable skills that you have and taking those outcomes you have from teaching and turning them into another language. That's kind of what I want to culminate with on the teacher side is I hope this resource helps teachers speak a new language, because you do have to speak the language of business, right? You can't talk education because the people you're talking to, the hiring managers, can't receive that. They don't know what you're saying. And so it's funny, we're talking about diversity on this podcast. Knowing your audience and being able to speak to them and resonate with them is a big challenge for teachers because the industries are just so different. Right? And so we help teachers speak the language of business to get that opportunity. The other side of your question is that I hope you take a chance on teachers and let them stumble through speaking that language, whether you're the recruiter, the hiring manager, whether you're, you know, the executive or the leader sitting there doing your capacity planning and saying, oh, we're going to need two people here, one person here, six people here. I hope that you pause and think, who else can do these jobs? Because teachers are highly skilled. They're not coming into you entry level. This is not their first job. I like to say teachers get early level roles in corporate because they're, they've got multiple degrees. Usually. They've had hundreds of professional development hours a year. I mean, Andrew, what company is investing hundreds of hours of upskilling into their employee base? Like, you just don't see it. You don't see it in court in the corporate world. And so teachers have a lot to offer. And so that's my plug, if you will, to businesses is give teachers a chance.
They're highly skilled, they're going to thrive. You're going to be blown away at their skill set. And like I said, don't put yourself in an echo chamber thinking you have to hire the same background with the same industry expertise with the same industry or product experience. Teachers are adaptable. They get handed new grades and new curriculum every year all the time. This is just a new grade and this is a new curriculum.
[00:40:06] Speaker B: So many golden nuggets there. Ashley. The things that kind of popped out to me is, first of all, you talk about personal brand and networking. I'm a firm believer that, you know, if you build a community and build your brand so strong that Ashley and I, somebody else is in a room or on the phone talking and Andrew's name comes up and they say, oh, you know Andrew. Oh yeah, I was on Andrew's podcast. Oh, I was on Andrew's podcast before as well. How cool is that? And you're having a conversation about me, but I'm not in the room. So that's exactly what me personal branding means to me is. So I love that you say that the teachers are super important. If they want to change their, their, their careers and get into something else, you want to, you, you want to have that situation where somebody's talking about you and you're not there. The other thing that I love that you said is thinking about things that you want to do. So if you're a teacher and there's things that you, because there's things I'm sure that they, if they want to get out, there's things that they enjoyed a mo being a teacher and there's things that they didn't enjoy. So I always suggest to people, take a piece of paper put to make two columns, things you enjoy about your past career, things that you don't enjoy, and then you list all those things. And then when you're looking for a career, anything that says anything about the things that you didn't like don't apply because it's just gonna be the same story, the same theme, the same ending every single time. You want to look for the things that are on your positive column or the things that you really enjoy. So I guess a lot of things resonated to me, but those are two things that stuck out that you said.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. And the reason that for teachers and this is probably anybody who maybe started their first career, that it wasn't what they thought. Whether you're a data analyst or you went into project management or like you gave the example, there are HR professionals that are leaving because it's either not what they wanted or it's not how they want it to be. The personal brand is really important because I want to give a confidence boost to those folks.
We're getting better at saying we are not our jobs. We really are. We're getting better. We're telling people that, or some people are. Some people are hearing it. A lot of people aren't still hearing it, though, and they get sucked into that. And so one of the first things that happens when I talk to a teacher, the first question they ask me is, well, how did you do it? It's like, okay, so we'll address that. So I tell them. But then the second is they, they falter with themselves and they say, well, what can I do? Because I'm just a teacher and I can't stand that. Right? Like, you are not just a teacher. You can do so many things, and I, and I don't think that that's unique to teaching. Like I said, wherever you fall in your early career, you say, well, I don't think I could ever do that because I'm just to this or I'm just to that. It's like, no, you can be what it is you want to be, and that's that personal brand work. And it, it's built on the foundation of the reflection work. Like you said, andrew, like it, it all kind of coincides. Your personal brand is you, but you use it for your career in business.
But you need to think, I encourage teachers to think on that, to build that personal brand, because, no, you're not just teacher. There's a lot of things that you can do, and you can be whatever you want to be. We tell our students that as teachers, oh, you can be anything you want. You can be president. Oh, you want to go to the NBA? Yeah, you can go into the NBA, right? Oh, you want to play in the New York symphony? Yeah. Great. You can, you can totally do it. Practice, work hard. You know, we pump kids up and then we don't do it for ourselves. Right. So work on that personal brand, because you're not just anything. And you can be what you want. You can make a the life you want. You really can.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Ashley, if you could go back and give advice to your 18 year old self or eight year old self, what advice would you give to her?
[00:44:06] Speaker A: You know, Andrew, we, I think in our interactions leading up to this, you could see I have a pretty strong personality. I'm pretty type a, right? Like, I have always been that way. I'm pretty measured and very much risk adverse. And I think that is because I'm actually a highly functioning anxiety person. And I've always struggled with that, even when I was young. And if I looking back now, which is good timing, I'm going to be 40 soon in a couple years. This is a good half life to look back. And if I could, I was thinking about this. If I could, I would tell her that things are not going to work out the way that you want them to or the way that you imagined, and it's, you're going to be better for it.
That's what I would hope that she would see because there was a lot of times in college, you know, I went somewhere my freshman year thinking I was going to play softball. I used to really pride myself on being an athlete all through middle school and high school. It was my identity, if you will. And then I went to college, play softball, and it didn't work out the way that I thought it would. And it was kind of crushing. And I was like, okay, so now I'm going to go to this college and I'm going to be a teacher through all my effort behind being a teacher. And then, you know, five years in, it's like, man, this isn't going to work out. And I had a first relationship that was not good for me, that didn't work out. And so there was a lot of time through, you know, high school, college, and my twenties that I was like, this is not what I thought life was going to be. I wanted, I wanted so much more for myself and my future, and I made changes. Like I said, I feel liberated. You know, I feel like since my career pivot like I said, my relationships got better, more time with family. A lot of things changed with that. It was a big moment in my life making that decision. And so I would tell eight year old Ashley that it is going to be okay, is going to work out, is not going to be the way that you think, because life is complex, but it will all be okay. And to chill out a little bit, it'll be all right.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: I love everything that you said there, and I love the fact that you talk about things are not going to work out, and not everything's going to work out. And I think we realize that as we get older, and you're right, when we're younger, we kind of think, oh, yeah, this is gonna be, it's gonna be easy. I'm gonna do this, and it's, everything's gonna happen. It's gonna be super easy, and I'm just gonna skate through and you, you know, and, yeah. And, and you realize that it, you know, things become tougher, and as you get older, it actually becomes even. You know, you hit that stage, and then as you get older, it becomes difficult as well. And, you know, when relationships change and things change, and I, and, you know, I would, you know, I love that you stuck with your guns, and, you know, when, you know, there's lots of things that you've learned along the way, but you adopted. I love the word adopt, and you adopted to every situation that you were in, and look where you are now. You are, you know, and, you know, a strong human who, who's giving great advice to people, and, and that's. I think you. I think you did good for yourself.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: Well, thank you. It wasn't always pretty, Andrew. That's the other thing you gotta add. It's not, it doesn't look the way that you think it's gonna look. It's not always glamorous and great, but, you know, sticking with it, you know, like, I.
No one, no one should believe in you the way that you believe in you. You can have support, you can have allies. You need that absolutely in your life. But you have to be the one at the end of the day to know that, like, no, I can do this. I'm going to be all right. Sucks right now, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna be different tomorrow.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: It's not always gonna be sunshine and rainbow is what I say.
[00:47:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Any final thoughts today, Ashley?
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah, just anybody who is looking to make a career change. Like I said, whether, whether you're that teacher feeling stuck or just early on your career or even late in your career. I mean, screw that, that you only can make change when you're younger. You know, like anytime if you're feeling like, hey, this isn't working for me, and you sit with that and you figure out why, just go for it. Because, like we were just mentioning, you know, no one cares about your career like you do. No one can care about your future like you can. Allies, family, friends, significant others. We need a support network, 100%. But you're the one that has to do the work. They can't do it for you. They can cheerlead you. They can champion you, but you've got to go for it. So dig deep, find out whatever it is that is that you do want to change and make a plan. Like you said, whether it's a kind of a double column of pro and con or good and bad or repeat, never repeat, list whatever you want to think of, you know, do that for yourself and then speak up and go for it. Because the tip, I guess, that I'll leave. I. It's another, it's another little mantra quip that I picked up a long time ago that I love and I remind myself of this often, and that is nothing changes. If nothing changes, you can't be in a different place in six months if you don't make any changes. If you do make changes, you can absolutely be somewhere better in six months, and it still may not be where you ultimately want to be, but it's progressed. So celebrate that. And like I said, believe in yourself the most. Be your biggest champion, be your biggest cheerleader. But just remember, if you stay stagnant, nothing will change. If you don't change anything.
[00:49:46] Speaker B: I love everything that you said there. I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. Ashley, you are a remarkable individual.
I always talk about passion, people, and I just love the passion that you have for you, for you and for what you do. I always say that you can always hear the passion in someone's voice. So let's, you know, if you're talking to somebody on the phone and you can't see their face and you can hear the passion in their voice and what they talk, what they're talking about is so inspiring to people and specifically myself. So I was the lucky one today because, you know, for those who are listening, I take my podcast on video and they come out audio. So I was lucky enough to see the passion for this last 50 minutes in Ashley's face. And I'm. I know that you guys are going to hear this when you're the passion in her voice, when you're listening to this, she is a, you know, you're such a super passionate individual and I just love your care and understanding and for people and being willing to help them if they're willing to help themselves. I just love that. So thank you for taking the time and spending it with me. It was, it was great.
[00:51:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Andrew, thank you so much for those kind words. I was, it means so much. Really. Thank you so much for all that I do.
I heard you. I'm going to have a great day all day today because of what you just said. That was so kind. Thank you so much.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: You're very, very welcome. It's my pleasure. On behalf of myself and my guest, Ashley, I thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everybody, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: Have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout. To stay up to date with future content, hit subscribe.
