Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to take a moment to share something that's been on my heart, something I've been working on behind the scenes for a while now. I'm officially writing a book. This book is called let's Be A Practical Guide to Leading Through Change. And it's deeply personal to me. It's built from real experiences. The uncertainty, the challenges, the moments where I didn't have the answers but had to lead. This isn't just a leadership book filled with theory. It's about navigating uncertainty when there's no clear direction, building internal clarity when everything around us feels unclear, having courageous conversations, even when they're uncomfortable, and leading with value, especially when it's the hardest to do so. I'm also going into topics that don't get talked about enough, like what it feels like to be challenged, overlooked, and even bullied as an adult in a workplace. And how those moments shape the kind of leader you become. This book is for anyone who's ever thought, how do I lead when I don't feel ready? How do I show up when I don't have all the answers? And how do I stay true to myself in environments that challenge me? If this is you, this book is for you. I'll be sharing more about the journey behind the scenes moments and opportunities for you to be part of it as we go. So stay tuned because this is more than just a book. It's a movement around how we lead through change together. All right, let's get to today's episode. Opinions expressed in this episode are personal.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who've supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today our topic is the shift from employee engagement to human engagement. My guest today is one inspiring human. Her name is Tessa Campen. Tessa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: How are things with you? What's going on in your world? Give me the tea, give me the deets. What's going on?
[00:02:11] Speaker B: We're heading into summer. It's June, so in my world we're coming to year end exams for my daughter just gearing up for summer. So yeah, I'm in Ontario, Canada here and it's hot, it's getting Hot in here.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: I mean, in Canada, we look forward to the warm weather, that's for sure. There are people that enjoy the winter as well, and that's to them. To each their own. I am a summer guy through and through. Spring, summer, fall. I love that I will go out in the wintertime, but I'm not a wintertime activity guy. I'm more the summer guy. But again, everybody has their preference and that's what makes this world great.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, we love winter too. We snowboard and ski. So our. Our family tries to take advantage of all of the seasons as much as we get a really short spring and fall, but.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah, can't complain.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: I love it. Well, thanks for, for letting us know and I. Hopefully you have some good plans set up for the summertime and. And enjoy it. Enjoy the nice weather, for sure. Before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question that I ask all my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:03:16] Speaker B: I'm ready.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Okay, so your question today is, if your life, leadership, and personal journey were made up or blended into a smoot, what ingredients would be in it and why?
[00:03:29] Speaker B: When I talk about my. My facilitation or my training or my leadership, I often think of it as like a mosaic. So I guess if I was making a smoothie, I'd probably be throwing in, you know, a whole bunch of berries, maybe some. Maybe some kale. Maybe I'd have to throw in some, I don't know, some. Some different vegetables in there as well. That's a tough question. Yeah, I think it's just a whole bunch of different things because I feel like when it comes to. To the work that I do, although I have a really core purpose, which is to create a world where people are understood, I think that I bring a whole bunch of different things into there. So it would have to be a mixture of fruits and veggies in there for sure.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Well, thanks for having fun. You're quick with your answer, so I love it and it was a great answer. And I love the mosaic part in your answer too, so that's super awesome. So to get us started here, Tessa, who are you and what really drives you to do the work that you do?
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Well, first and foremost, I'm a w. A mother. I'm. I'm a Christian. I love to play sports and be with my family and enjoy this amazing world that we get to live in. But from a work perspective, I'm a facilitator. A trainer, a speaker.
And what really drives me is this. We are all connected by a human fear, which is the fear of being misunderstood. And so I think I'm just driven by that fear. I've experienced it. I'm sure you've experienced it. And I want to be able to get up every day and help people become understood. And so that's. That's why I do what I do. I'm not perfect at it. I mess up at this every day as well. But just getting the chance to wake up every day and try to do my best to understand the humans that I get to meet and live with and do life with is really what just gets me going every day.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: What you just said was super inspirational. When you were speaking, what I was thinking of is a lot of people use the words perfection. And when you said that you do the best that you can. We all have a fear of being misunderstood. I think if we're not trying, if we're not doing anything creative or innovative, then there is that opportunity that it's not going to work out. So it's not that we're not perfect. It just means that it just needs to be redone or looked over or mixed up or try to fix it up. Try to do it a little bit differently is where I'm going.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't. I don't know if it's a matter of perfectionism that drives it. I think it's just a matter of. Our default is judgment. We meet someone, we look at them, we immediately assign a character flaw or a label to them based on our model of the world. And I think that oftentimes we maybe don't show up at our best, and that gets interpreted as something different. And so I just. I just really feel that if we took time to get to know the human in front of us, then I think we'd be able to make our world just a better place to live.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: 100%. Your work often focuses on people and workplace culture. So when you hear the phrase human engagement, what does it mean to you? And how is it different from the traditional idea of employee engagement?
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess the way that I look at it is we go to work and we do work. And so employee engagement, human engagement, essentially they're the same. But I think if you're going to shift it a little bit, it's looking at the human who comes to work instead of the worker who comes to work. And I often say workshops. When I do workshops with people, I'll always Start with a connection activity where people can connect with their coworkers. And I say to them, you all know what you do from a work perspective. But what's important is that human that comes in the door. Because once you leave at 5 and you come back at 8 the next day, something has happened within that time frame. Right. So when we think of human engagement, it's engaging the human, so understanding the human in front of you, not just the worker that comes to your job site.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: And when we do that, you're getting to know your people on another level. And like you said, they want to be seen or misunderstood. When they are misunderstood, they don't like it. So when we connect with them, then you're gonna have that human interaction for sure.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So the more you get to know people, I mean, I just, just actually did a post on that this morning where we, we live in a world that is just interacting. If I talk to someone, it's like, oh, I'm connecting with them. But it's. Words just mean you're interacting with people. You're not connecting with people. And I think at work it's the same thing. At work. You. You can go through your day interacting with people, but you're not connecting with people. And really the reality is people leave organizations not because of the work, but because of how they feel doing the work inside your organization. And usually it's because they're not connected to anyone inside of it.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I love to interact with people. I like to have a virtual chat with them, get to know them, see them face to face, hear what they're doing. If I'm just sending a message to somebody, yes, great to meet you, that's great. But to see that person face to face, it means a lot. So I do talk a lot about one on ones as leaders with our teams. And I know a lot of leaders are busy, but when you do spend a time with that individual and just find out how things are going, it just means so much more to them. It just means that you care and you're not just a number to them.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, you know, you said leaders will say they're busy. And I always push back and I'm like, that's your job. If you're in a leadership position, your job is to connect with your people. And if you don't have time for that, then you should not be a leader. Like it, it blows my mind when, when people say we don't have time to do one one on ones. Well then what are you doing with your time that that's what a leader should be doing is connecting with their people.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: I'm interested to hear what your thoughts on this Artessa. As leaders work to create more human centered workplaces, what challenges or barriers tend to get in the way and how can they overcome them?
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's about awareness. The biggest challenge is people expect other people to be just like them. And so you go into a workplace where you have all these employees and if you're expecting people to communicate like you, or to have the same strengths as you, or enjoy the same tasks as you, then you're going to have a really hard time leading people. There's going to be a lot of tension in your organization.
And so you need to understand again, the human in front of you. And when I go into schools, I'll often talk to them about the difference between chess and checkers. When we look at a chess board or a checkerboard, it's exactly the same, but the difference are the pieces. And when we play chess, our pieces move in different ways. Right. You play checkers, there's one way that the checker pieces can move, but in chess, every piece moves a different way. And that's the same with your people. You cannot be playing checkers with your people. Like you have to be playing chess. And so people who find it challenging are typically people who are trying to lead people or mold people into who they are. And those who actually thrive in leadership positions in their organizations are the ones who understand that they're playing chess, that they need to get to know their people. Those one on ones are so important. Right. And, and you need to speak their language and you need to put them in positions to win according to their strengths.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And not just finding out their strength, things that they enjoy and things that they don't enjoy. For example, if you're a leader and you have a project that you've gotten asked to do and you're looking for somebody to help you with it, well, then not everybody's going to want to be interested and be engaged in that project. So we have to know about our people. Exactly. Figure out who's going to fit in what situation, who is going to fit in other situations. So for organizations that are just beginning this journey, what are some practical first steps they can take to create a more human centered employee experience?
[00:11:07] Speaker B: I think we've already covered like the bulk, like the main pieces of it is you need to get to know your people. Right. You need to get around that desk and get on the other side of it and interact with your people and ask them questions not just about the work they're doing, but, you know, ask them about their weekend, get to know their family, get to know things that they do outside of work. And, you know, because if all you know are the things that they do here, then you're, you're missing a huge part of that person. So I think definitely setting up opportunities for people to just share parts of them and who they are. I often say the best, the best thing a leader can do is ask three questions. And the first question is, how are you doing? And this should not be about work. Like, how are you doing? And when people start to open up or they're sharing things, then you have empathy for them when they come to work on, on certain days and they're not at their best. Right. Maybe some, maybe they're dealing with a spouse or a mother or a child. That's sick. If you don't ask those questions, then you don't know. And then, and then you're leading with judgment rather than understanding. So, like, how are you doing? Is the very first question that I often ask leaders to start asking their people.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: If you're just doing it in passing, just to say, oh, I did it, but not having the time for that response, and something's on their mind and they're going to be vulnerable with you. You have to be prepared because something's going on.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Don't ask a question you don't want to hear the answer to. Like, you know what I mean? If you're going to ask someone how their day is and then you don't really care to hear the answer, then don't ask them that question. Find another question. And we do that all the time. It's like, you know, you walk by someone at work and you say, hi, how are you? But you keep walking. You don't even stop to hear the answer. Did you actually even care to hear the answ?
Well, then don't ask the question. Right. Like, and I, I, you know, we see that all the time. We do it all the time. We ask questions that we actually don't care to hear the answer to. So find a better question then.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. So how does human engagement connect to diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and creating workplaces where people genuinely feel that they belong?
[00:13:13] Speaker B: I think that's, that's really the essence of dei. I mean, you know, that it's such a controversial topic. Let's be Honest. You talk about DEI and what we're talking about is like, we have to have X amount of females versus males versus this, gender versus that. And that's not DEI at all. If anything, that's creating an even more divine. How does it fit into it? It fit in. It fits into it because you're actually getting to know that human. You know, DEI is about creating psychological safety on your team. That's what it's about. And the very first phase of psychological safety is inclusion safety. Do I feel as though I belong here?
And many people don't? Right. I don't belong here if I believe this or if I live my life that way or if I do this. And so if you're creating a human centered workplace, then you got to get to know the human and then you've got to allow that human to feel safe enough to show up and belong because they're a human. It's like at the end of the day, inclusion safety is about you belong here because you're a human being. That's it. Period.
Not because you're good at your job, not because you're of our DEI stat that we just met, because you're a human being who comes to work, who is valued, seen and heard.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Right?
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. So I think, I think people are starting to shift towards a more human centered DEI philosophy and plan.
And.
And they're doing it by recognizing that each individual human that walks through that door has unique gifts and skills and abilities and we need to tap into them.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: And the conversations that I'm having too, Tessa, is. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done, but I think people are understanding that people have different ideas. And I think people are understanding and then they're willing to listen to it more than they did ever before.
My ideas and your ideas, Tessa, are going to be maybe a little bit different, but there's diversity in that. And maybe I'll look at your idea and say, tessa, you know what? I never thought of it that way. It's a good idea to look at it in that way and vice versa. So it's super interesting to me that that's happening.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And you don't have to agree. Right. The point is not consensus. In fact, if you have consensus all the time, then you probably don't have safety on the team. So the point is, can I show up and be uncomfortable and disagree and do all those things without fear of losing my job or without fear of being casted out and not included anymore? Like it's it's really you. You and I should be able to disagree and then say I still agree with my way of thinking and you, your way of thinking and I still respect you as a human being and we can go on and still be colleagues.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, looking ahead, Tessa, how do you feel the concept of human engagement evolving and what should leaders be paying attention to over the next few years?
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think again, it just, I think it's evolving from a. You're engaging the whole being, you're recognizing the strengths and limitations that that person brings to your team. And I mean, I, I don't know how much that has shifted. I don't know if it was always there, just kind of put under a different sort of title or umbrella. But I know that we're talking more about it, so we tend to hear more about it. Right. People are more vocal about those things now. We're seeing studies, we're seeing stats. And I think now employees are not tolerating workplaces that don't appreciate the whole being. And so it's almost like the employees themselves are requesting this human centered approach to work. Now we need to be careful as well, because I may not get everything I want or need as a human. And on the flip side then I need to also respect that as well. Right. Like, I think there's a bit of a dichotomy here where it's like we want to have a human centered workplace, but then sometimes these, these humans who go to work end up getting bent out of shape or upset when they don't get something they want. But that's not, you're not going to get everything you want just because we're human centered anymore. Right. It really still has to be in line with company values and those sort of things while considering the human who's coming to work. And, and so I think, I think, yeah, I think organizations are just paying more attention to well, being and, and to the needs of the people who come to work.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: I love when you said talking about it more and you're absolutely right. Some things that I'm seeing that were happening years ago and I, I didn't really realize it. And as I've gotten older, I've looked back, I'm like, oh, I remember this happening, but we weren't talking about it. I'll give you a term that is talked about now. Quiet quitting. So people were doing that years ago, but now people are talking about it because it's something that is becoming more prevalent. So I Love that you said that. And I agree with you 100%. The more that we talk about these things, the more that they're out there. And then more people will realize and maybe think back and say, hmm, maybe I'm doing that, or maybe I'm in this situation. How do I fix it?
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: So before we wrap up here, what is one key takeaway that you'd like our listeners to remember from this episode?
[00:18:17] Speaker B: I mean, if you're, if you're an employee inside of an organization, I think you have a responsibility as well to share parts of you that you, that you love. So from a work perspective, one of the tools that I use is Patrick Lencioni's six Types of Working Genius. And what that shares is where people get joy and energy when it comes to tasks. And oftentimes we know what gives us energy and joy from work perspective, we know how we want to be appreciated inside of an organization. We know that we need to speak up, but we don't. And then we end up leaving organizations and then we turn it on. We're like, well, that organization was terrible. Or we say things about the organization. But you also have a responsibility as an employee to share the things that you love or loathe with the people who you're working with. You can reverse mentor your leader, you can share tools, you can share those things and, and play a part in that human centered journey that, that is hopefully a responsibility for everyone in the organization. But don't just leave it on your leaders to, to do that. Right. And don't go complain to your, to your co workers either. We need to be able to have these conversations and. Yeah. And then hold our leaders accountable to creating cultures.
Want to be a part of such
[00:19:34] Speaker A: a great message that you just said there. It's almost like when you go to a restaurant and the food you're getting is not what you want and then you pay the bill and you leave. I understand you're upset, but you need to let the manager of the restaurant know exactly what happened. Because if they don't know, then how can they fix it? Then once you've done it, it's the onus of the company to either take it or leave it.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, don't wait till you leave. Do it before you leave.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Well, that too for sure.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Right. Because if you're just doing it when you leave, then every time you leave an organization, you're giving them the feedback. But any organization you walk into isn't getting better. So I think you know we just need to be courageous enough to speak up in those in those environments to just help everyone including the leader.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Well said. My call to action today would be to like share and follow this episode. Tessa, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. What I admire about you is your commitment to being impactful, your infectious energy, the impact you make on everyone you meet and your dedication and of course your passion and your patience. It was an absolute pleasure having you on as a guest today. So thank you so much for joining us.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for having me.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: You're very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest Tessa, I'd like to thank you all for listening today and until next time be safe and remember everyone that if we all work together we can accomplish anything you have been listening to.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.
