Not Just Qualifications: The Truth About Bias In Career Advancement

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform. [00:00:12] Speaker B: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Our topic today is not just qualifications, the truth about bias in career advancement. Our guest today is someone who I think is a pretty awesome human. Her name is Dina Helm. Dina, welcome to the show. So nice to have you on here today. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Thank you, Andrew. It's great to be here. [00:00:46] Speaker B: It's great to have you on here. How are things with you, Dina? What's going on? Give me the tea, give me the deets, give me it all. What's going on, Dina? [00:00:54] Speaker A: I guess a few things. I, my, my, my kids actually just got back from Asia last week, so that was a two month trip for them which is pretty crazy and exciting. I'm glad they got to have kind of a cool experience like that together. I don't think they'll ever do it again. I think they're done with traveling together, but they did it once. I think that's a mom win in business. Working with a lot, talking with a lot of new people, actually a lot of leaders, a lot of expectations. I'm excited to talk about this topic and, and maybe a little bit of a different way today and just kind of see what comes up as we, as we discuss this idea of bias and promotion and all of that good stuff. [00:01:34] Speaker B: I love that and I do love, as we get into this conversation, I will say I do love talking to new people. It's so fun to hear their perspectives and their ideas. So cool to see how creator creativity and where their minds are at in certain things. We're never going to have the same ideas or going to have different opinions on stuff. So I love to hear people's opinions on, on, on different topics. So I'm with you on that. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's, it's so valuable and I think that, you know, part of, part of what we're missing is listening to all those different voices. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, thanks for sharing that with me. Before we begin, Dina, I always have a fun thought provoking question that I ask all my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today? [00:02:20] Speaker A: Well, we'll see you. Fire away. [00:02:22] Speaker B: So my question for you today is what is one life lesson that you've learned the hard way? [00:02:30] Speaker A: One. Okay. It's hard to narrow it down, but I would say the most recent one and it took me a long time. I like to learn the hard way. I do like to learn the hard way. I'm a little stubborn like that is, is, you know, as we grow and change and evolve, our world around us does too. And when we try to keep in the people, the opportunities, the jobs, the relationship, whatever that no longer serve us on that journey, we suffer. And so I kind of look at the concept of a river, right. And so what I think we do or what I've done certainly is at some points, you know, you have relationships that are 20 years old or whatever and, and you have so much history and it's. And you know, you've, you've grown in different directions and that's apparent, but you're not ready to let that go. It's really uncomfortable the thought of not those people in your day to day. And so we try to dam that river, right? So it's like, you know, we, we block it. And so that makes it a little bit more predictable. But of course running water shouldn't be stagnant, right? And then you cause problems and like, I mean, you could even look into it like illness, the body keeps the score and all of that stuff. And, and I think we really cause ourselves and even others a lot of suffering when we're holding onto the things that no longer serve us. And that doesn't mean people are bad people. It just means sometimes your growth path leads you a different way. But when you try to block that river, you kind of pay for it. I think in the. So for me it was more like realizing you, you know, you have to let it flow. People will come into your life, they'll come out of your life, and that's going to be until the end of time. There's no, you know, there was a part of me that thought, okay, I've checked all those boxes, I've done it. And then I met someone who said, yeah, I'm going through this tough period. And I thought, what like for you? And she was somebody who I. In my head, she's so much more ahead than me. And I thought, you're like, it's still happening to you. It was just such a shocker. But it did really ground me in that way of realizing this is a lifelong thing. And the more of the suffering is, is the longer we to the things that aren't serving us. So it's been a beautiful release, I think, you know, with love and appreciation for what was. And then also when you. To get. When you allow things to. To pass you by, you're also allowing for the right people and the right opportunities to come in. And that's. That's really what's been happening for me, I would say in the last, you know, definitely in the last year, but probably in the last three. Huge, huge lesson. But I definitely learned that the hard way. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Wow. What a great answer. You're absolutely right. I was just telling somebody the other day, and actually we're just talking before we started. It's great to meet some people and. And great to connect and learn things about people. Opinions. Everyone's going to have their opinion, and we. We're never going to change those opinions. So we just, as people who are supporting us and connecting with us, we just asked that they respect our opinion, and we're going to respect their opinion. That's the kind of way that I've been looking at it for the last year because I can't think anything different because that's just the way that it is. And everyone's got so many opinions on any different topic that you want to name. And it's really. It can be really tough out there, but. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Oh, it's. [00:05:26] Speaker B: For myself, it's been easy. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been so. It's very divisive. Right. And ironically, what we want most, and this is in studies since. I don't even know. For. For decades, one of the biggest things that we want is connection. And yet. And yet what we're doing is division. So it is a really. Yeah, it's a really backwards thing. Yeah, you're right. To be able to understand someone else's point of view and be okay with them having their own thought process and you having your own, you know. Yeah. I think it's just so evident in the world today because there's so much division. It can be tricky, but absolutely. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Well, listen, thank you so much for having fun with me. I was trying to figure out what. Something to ask you today, and you pretty much rocked that one. I'm even more excited about this conversation here. To get us started, who are you, Dena, and what really drives you to do the work that you do? [00:06:16] Speaker A: Okay, so my name is Dena Helm. I am certified coach. I'm a consultant. I have over 15 years of leadership experience myself, and I specialize in a personality framework called the enneagram. The enneagram 10 years ago really was pivotal in changing my life and supporting me and seeing some things clear. I mean, we all know that we have blind spots. We don't realize quite how, how deep that goes and how excessive they are. And then once you kind of get to that point and realize, whoa, you know, these are my patterns, it can be pretty fascinating. So I'm really passion about working with teams and leaders because I think the workplace needs it. And what I come in to do is support people in seeing people again. You know, so sometimes I'm brought in proactively because teams really want to continue to grow and understand one another and they want to improve their culture and all of those great things. And sometimes it's a little bit more reactive where there's been a shift, maybe there's been a merger or big change, something has happened that the team are struggling. And then sometimes it's a last ditch effort. You know, there's. Leaders often get put in a position because they were good at the job that they did. But you know, even a cashier at a grocery store gets trained at that job. But a lot of times leaders get put into a role and there's no real, no real training as far as supporting people and understanding people and those kind of things. So sometimes it's a last ditch effort where, okay, how do we really try to support this person and see if things can, can shift? And to be honest, I, I love that because it takes me a lot to give up on somebody. If I see a spark in there, if there's any desire to do better and to make change, I'm going to be the biggest advocate. So I find it really exciting to get in there and just get super, super curious with people. I don't come in with judgment, I don't come in with thinking. I know it all. But I come in and I pay attention and I ask a lot of questions and I get curious and then we go from there to support. So that's pretty much my, my favorite thing to do. And watching people grow is like, brings me so much joy. Like, it is, it is the thing that lights me up. Like I want to work with people so that they never have to talk to me again and that they, and they thrive at work. And so that's kind of my goal. And yeah, and the thing I'm probably most passionate about, something that stuck with [00:08:30] Speaker B: me when he said, when he said support people in seeing people again. That really hit a, hit a mark on me because it's something, and we're going to get into this today, but it's, I think it's something that is missing in a lot of organizations right now. And we're not Just talking about, just looking at somebody, but actually seeing who they are, what they can bring to the table. Like you said, the good in people. I think it's missing and I'm not sure why. I know, not sure why it went away, but it did go away. And sometimes I think it's getting better. But I'll be honest and vulnerable with you. I'm not sure some days that it is. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think some companies are doing it much better than other companies. Right. I almost compare it to like, our school system, our education system. It's like, okay, how many kids in that classroom are really succeeding in a day? You know, my daughter, who's almost 19, will say, I don't think I learned anything after grade three. Right. I learned all the basics, basic math. And it's like, really, we're not, you know, we're so many kids. We're really, really not supporting and we're not educating. So it's like, what are we doing? You know, we all expect everybody to be able to have these, you know, sit in that seat, learn the thing, do the thing, get the grades. It's like, it's not working. And it's kind of sad because we're. But, but the workplace is very much the same. You know, fit in this box, do this thing. And it is kind of weird, Andrew, that, that the, the workplace hasn't really woken up to that. How is this serving us really? You know, but it's just what we've always done. So we get so complacent, I think, and, and, and real change, real effort takes effort. It's hard. And so, you know, let's just keep doing the same thing over and over again, which of course is the definition of insanity versus putting in some work, getting a little uncomfortable. Let's, let's be honest. Change and self evaluation and self awareness and growth. It's not easy. And so it's easier to whatever, fire somebody and hire the next guy and hope that he's going to be the answer. Right. And so, yeah, it is. It is super, super interesting, for sure. [00:10:36] Speaker B: So our topic today is not just qualifications. The truth about bias and career development. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:42] Speaker B: What I wanted to know from you is are there particular groups or identities that are more affected by bias in career advancement? [00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And the answer is, of course, I mean, this is not new news. I mean, you know, women, people of color, newcomers, like, I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of people that are, are less likely to get the opportunity just simply because of who they are. And I think that's Norma and I. But the thing that I think we're missing and that I really wanted to talk about today is how we do that every single day with every single person. And it's more of a personality, a style or an energy of somebody that we have a huge bias against that. So what we believe a leader looks like can be pretty shallow. Right? So like I said, I've been in leadership since over 15 years of my life. And that started at 19 years old. And that's because typically, I mean, I'm assuming typically my type as. And again, I'm a big enneagram nerd. So I am a type 8. My type is traditionally looked at as a leader. And that's because I can think fast, I speak up, I advocate, I do all the things. And that's just in my. How I'm wired. And so what happens is that people like me are often going to be the first people to get put in around those boardroom tables, the first person to put in leadership because just. Just looks the way you think a leader should look now. And that's great. I mean, type eights and lots of types are good leaders. But what's interesting is that, you know, there's so much wisdom in every person. It just comes out a little differently, you know, and if we knew that, you know, I was working with somebody not too long ago and she, she's a teacher and she's actually, of course, she's. She's quite brilliant. And she's a type 5 who is more of an investigator, a thinker. And so, you know, the Type Fives in the world are really people that have created some of the most incredible things because they have the most incredible minds. And yet they're more of a. They're a processor that takes more time. And you know, I talked to her about, you know, being in a staff meeting. I said, how is that for you? Because of course, you know, the principal, whoever asks a question, and people like me are going to have the answers right away. There's right. It just comes. But people like her don't have the answer in that moment because they really need to like, sit back and process and collect the data and whatever. And so if it was a day later that her principal said to her, like, what'd you come up with? Not only would she feel seen and acknowledged, she would give you like the most incredible support that someone like me would never have come up with. But we miss those people. And so it is absolutely tragic that we don't Understand our people better and to see them and understand these are your strengths, these are your struggles. And as a leader, I'm showing up to support you. So I'm getting the absolute best out of, out of you. And for. We could go into many reasons of why that's important, but I'm sure that'll come up later. [00:13:34] Speaker B: I think I agree with what you're saying there. And I think one of the issues is communication. I think we're, we're missing some communication somewhere along the ladder or in some scenarios, and it's just, it falls apart when we're, when we're lacking communication. And I, I think communication is so key in every aspect. If we're going to talk about. In an organization, it is so big, and if there's none, then there's an issue. And then you talked about your teacher, who is an investigator. Maybe they're trying to figure out what's going on and how to figure out how to solve it, but they're not going to come out with an answer or a solution right away. Sometimes it takes them a little bit of time, like you said, to figure that out. But that was a solution. But how do we figure it out? [00:14:22] Speaker A: Well, and then we go. We have, you know, communication, of course, is huge, but we have to go a step, like back to the foundation is your culture. Because if I'm not safe to communicate, then that's not happening. It's not happening. Right. So there's boardrooms where nobody speaks up. And you think, oh, everybody's just in agreeance. It's like, no, nobody feels safe to speak up. Right. I hear this all the time, too. It's like, you know, you get. One person gets called out in a meeting that sends a clear message to everybody else, don't do it. It's not worth the risk, you know, and again, you might have a type 8 in your room that says, I'm going to speak up anyway. But that is so not the norm. The norm is people are going to adapt to their environment and to the culture. So I think most of it comes back to having a culture where communication is safe, where making mistakes is okay, where you feel supported and. And again, seeing it keeps coming back to the same patterns. But if you don't have that culture of safety, then you're not going to get communication. And that's where you need to start. [00:15:18] Speaker B: You know, what are the common signs that a company's hiring or promotion process might be biased? [00:15:23] Speaker A: Well, I think you see it in, like, the same type of people Getting promoted. You know, also, like, I think sometimes, you know, we miss. I would say, like, you know, I think most companies have a list of values on their wall. And I would say, I don't know, I don't know what the percentage of, of companies that actually live by those values. And I would say that if they did, those hiring processes could be so much different. So again, you know, kind of like we talked about though, the people who get hired are typically the ones in an injury that are going to be quick to answer your question, probably be polished, maybe have a bit of a mask on and, you know, tell you what you want to hear. And if that's your hiring process, you are likely going to get, yeah, you're likely going to get the same people and, but probably not the right people. Whereas, you know, I've, I've worked for a company that actually really appreciated their hiring process because not only did they plan everything out very differently, it wasn't just send us your resume. There was so much more than that. They're really looking for any indication that you were a fit. And so how they determined that were a few things. One was their values, because their values were important to them and they try to lead them daily. And another one was, it's a book called the Ideal Team Player. Have you ever heard of it, Andrew? Yeah. So in that book, it's this concept of, you know, when you're hiring, you need to look for three qualities. People need to be hungry, they need to be humble, and they need to be smart. And so what that means is like by humble, obviously they have a low ego. They're. They're willing to come in and, and yeah, be humble and just. And learn, learn the ropes kind of thing and get feedback and those kind of things. They want to grow and hungry is they have that drive. They want to learn. You can tell that they have that. And then of course, smart isn't necessarily like book smart, but it's people smart because if you don't get people right, you run into problems. So if you hire somebody with even one or two of those things, they might be okay for a bit, but at some point you're going to notice that third thing is missing. So I think that in hiring, especially looking for some of those really key things, asking the right questions, you know, not just going by a resume, but really getting a feel for somebody. And if they align with the culture that you have or hopefully are wanting to create, I think that saves you a lot of heartache in the long run. Of course, because businesses are, you know, they want to make money, they want that profit. But when we don't invest in our people and even invest in that hiring process, I mean, I mean, I'm sure like the retention, the hiring, the recruiting, so it's going to deplete you pretty quick. But sometimes that like again, because it's easier just to hire somebody new than actually develop the people you have. Sometimes that's still the way we choose to do things, which is, you know, I mean, I think too, like you hire somebody or maybe you fire someone. You know, Andrew, you're fired today and they bring Dean in your place because she looks like the, you know, the sharp new pencil, you know, in six months time. What do you think? Is that, is that still that, you know, it's usually like, oh no, there's, there's, you know, maybe it's not what we thought it was. Well, yeah, because I still need development and support just like Andrew did. Just like, you know, and so we're again in this vicious cycle of hiring people and then not developing them and not supporting them, not understanding ourselves as leaders. And then here we go again and again and again. And so real value is in understanding and doing that work. [00:18:34] Speaker B: I just, I love everything you said. First of all, hungry, humble, smart, smart. I think that when we're, when a lot of companies, when they're looking for somebody, unfortunately, through conversations that I've been having, a lot of companies will take the, the yes person, the one that is the gonna go with everything that the company is going for and that's the type of person that they'll take and that is not necessarily the right person to take. Yeah, because where's the creativity and the innovation coming from if they're just going to be a yes person? Where, where is a company getting it? [00:19:14] Speaker A: Oh yeah, exact. Exactly. You're right. It's a huge problem. And if that's the, if that's. Yeah. You want yes people surrounding you. I mean, I see this a lot in oil and gas. Right. I'm in Alberta. And so, you know, you have a lot of these guys that there's no reality in their worlds anymore because there's so many yes men underneath them that just want to keep their job or whatever. And, and it's like, it's so, it's so toxic because if you as a leader, if you have any desire for growth at all, if you have any desire to support your people, you want people that think differently than you. You know, one of the things I do on the side is I co host a monthly talk series with. With two other women. And I joke that, you know, we, we like each other because of our similarities, but the only reason anything gets done is because we're different, right? We have such different qualities that it's like, thank goodness, because some of the things I have no desire to do, someone else is great at them. And so, you know, when you're in a business trying to make money and you just think, I just need a bunch of people around me that agree with me, boy, like that's. Yeah, that's. You're in trouble. And you're right. It is so normal. But that diversity of thought and opinions and ways people think. And again, the enneagram speaks to some so much about why that is. Like some people. This is going to sound so random because I know for me, I was like, I really had to sit with it. But there's. There's a third of people who are very past focus. So when a decision needs to be made or something, you know, they, they often really reflect to the past. There's also people who are present focused. So when there's a problem, but not present in the way we want to be present, it's like pres. Think of an ambulance, right? Present. Like we have an emergency, all hands on deck. This is. We're dealing with this, right? And then you have people. And I'm in this quad, in this triad where we're future focused. So something happens. I'm already like 25 steps ahead thinking, how do I make sure this never happens again? And really future projecting, right? And so the thing is, there is value in all three of those thought processes. The problem is when we only pay attention to one of them, right? We need all three of them. And so. And it's hard. It's, you know, where we don't. Again, we don't even realize we're doing it, but it's a real thing. And so if you're in a, you're in a meeting and you're planning something really important and everybody in your. At your table is, you know, even in that present emergency focused, but they can't see what happened before and they can't predict what might happen next, you don't have a balanced decision there, right? So. So again, having all of these different people that think a little bit differently than you and can support you in thinking differently is only going to serve you and your and business. I think the thing is, sometimes things like this are uncomfortable because it bruises our ego. And so if anybody is Kind of like, I don't like a difference of opinion because it makes me feel less than. I mean, there's a lot of work to do there. Right. I love to. I'd love to support you. Yeah. There's this Dr. Phil quote that I use all the time. How's that working for you? Because I think if you really sat with it, you'd go, yeah, like, a lot of this feels kind of empty at the end of the day. Am I really content? Am I. Am I unsettled? Like, how do I. How do I really feel about my performance at the end of the day? I think if most people actually looked a little bit deeper, they'd real. You know what? Maybe I'm missing that. I'm missing that being challenged. Like I said to you when we started today, Andrea, I was like, how do you feel if I. How would you feel today if I challenged you? But. Because, again, that's part of my personality type. Right? So. And it's. It's absolutely not a negative thing. It's just like, sometimes you want to get to the core of it, and that takes sometimes a little push and pull, and I'm comfortable with that. Not everybody is. So, again, understanding your people is huge. [00:22:40] Speaker B: How do you see bias in career advancement evolving in the next five to 10 years? [00:22:45] Speaker A: You know what I really hope. Hope that there's more awareness. I think the generations coming after us are kind of looking at us and going, what have you guys done? I don't know. I don't know that you made the wisest decisions in a lot. In a lot of these ways. And, I mean, I hope there's a lot more tolerance and awareness. But awareness itself does not equal change. So I think that the bias might get quieter, maybe a little bit more subtle when it comes to. Back to, like, actual, you know, like I said, women, people of color, people who are. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Who are. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Are going to be marginalized. You know, you just really have to hope that we start looking at people as people. And then again, those values that you have on the wall, make those a priority in your business. Show up with those values when things are hard, not just when they're easy. And then also, yeah, looking for those three qualities. Humble, humble, smart. When you hire people, to me, that should be the bias. That should be. That should be the bias. Do people have these qualities? Do they align with our values? What. What can they offer our company versus any other? The other way to look at people is, you know, the quality that they're bringing in as a human, no matter what they look like. I just really hope that, you know, we would shift to a more intentional leadership where there's less assumption and way more curiosity. I think, you know, I think it's a Walt Whitman quote about like, not like no judgment. It's like not judgment, just curiosity. Right. And so, and that goes a long way. I think right now we lean a lot more towards judgment. You know, we point the finger and go, oh, what's wrong with him? Versus going, you know, what might have happened here? And getting really curious about why this person is showing up the way they do. You know, a big part, and I kind of hinted about this earlier, is when we, when we ask people to operate from a stress mode. And of course, a lot of people who are in, you know, in, in this, again, this marginalized group, they're going to probably overcompensate. They're trying to prove themselves. There's a lot of self doubt. They often like, you know, are under a lot of stress and feel really disconnected. Right. And so no matter who you are, whether you're marginalized or not, if you're under stress and operating from that, that arrow in the Enneagram, there's a, there's a growth arrow and a stress arrow for every number. So it kind of a type. Sorry. So it gives us a real clear indicator of, oh, wow, like I have, I've left. Almost like I've left my body and I've moved into this stress zone, which we all know, like, if you think about it, think about yourself day to day, who you are, how you show up, up, and then you think about yourself. When you're under a lot of stress, it looks different, right? You look different, you have different qualities, you have different responses. And same. When you're operating at your best, when you're really at that point of that peak point of like, I, you know, things are coming, like, you know, all the things are happening again, different again. And so the Enneagram has language for that. But what's interesting is when somebody is constantly operating out of their stress response, that's when we think you're a problem, right? That's when we start to judge people. But the truth is, any of us operating out of stress, we start to operate from a lower part of our brain. It's really that fight, flight, freeze, fawn. We're no longer capable of a lot. So what's crazy is that these cultures that really push, you know, the hustle and, you know, all the things and, you know, people that prize overworking, you know, all these things. It's like what you're doing is you're actually activating this part of your brain that, like, there's not a lot possible. And so if you're the boss, what are you getting out of these people? It's not creativity, right? You're. You're getting. You're actually getting the worst out of them. So, again, when people are seen and acknowledged and they rise and so then they can start to use different parts, you support them through their struggles because you understand what those are. They understand what those are. I mean, I've also seen the Enneagram used as an excuse. Any tool can be used for. I'm going to say violence, but I've. I've seen it used as an excuse where someone's like, oh, I'm a type this. So I'm. It's like, well, no, not really. Not really? Yeah, that's going to be harder for you. But that doesn't. That's not a pass to give up. Right. So it's really interesting how we can. Absolutely. I had. I had a leader once, actually. This is actually a good bias thing. So the company that introduced me to the Enneagram, it was my first day. I'd never heard of the Enneagram. I'd done so many personality tools tests because I've been in leadership for so long. So in my experience, you get the results, you read it, you go, oh, that's so interesting. Interesting. And then it goes into a drawer and nobody ever looks at it again. Right? So I didn't think this one would be any different. And like I said, it absolutely was because it goes beyond your behavior and more of your. Why. Why do you behave the way you behave. But when we got this, you know, I had my first day and they're kind of. They're deep, going deep into what this Enneagram is. There just happened to be some company leaders at this table as a part of this session, and one of the. One of the managers of one of the different stores started to cry. And she said, I think she. I forget what type she was, but she. She was upset because she wasn't a type that the company felt was a strong leader. Now she was in a leadership role. But I guess at some point the company is like, okay, strong leaders are three, a seven or an eight or what? You know, and as a result, you know, just even putting that out there made her feel less than. So again, all of these tools, no matter what it is, can cause damage if you. If you really don't understand the benefit of what it's trying to teach. And the truth is there's not one type of person that's better than another. I can tell you right now we all have our absolute incredible strengths and we also all have huge blind spots and challenges. And so to think that, you know, yours is better than mine, it's like, no, you know, and that's part of the beauty of it is just really starting to understand and accept people for who they are and support them through some of that harder stuff. So that you are getting that, you know, upper brain neocortex kind of lighting up and you're getting the best out of your people, which is, is obviously only going to benefit you in the long term. [00:28:23] Speaker B: When you said less assumption and way more curiosity, that really hit me because I think we all have that in or we've all had it in our lives where we have some sort of assumption on something or a situation. Something that I've been working on lately, I'd say in the last year is trying to not focus on the assuming. But like you said, more to curiosity. So when something is going on, obviously the old Andrew would have automatically been like, this is what's probably it's because this is what's going on, whatever. And now I step back and I kind of think, well, maybe this is going on or maybe this is happening and it may or may not be going on, but maybe this is what it is. So in other words, let's give it the benefit of the doubt or let's give them the benefit of doubt or the situation, the benefit of the doubt. Before we assume, once we find out what it is or do our due diligence or investigating or figuring out what's going on, then we can form our own opinions on what's happening. But before that, let's not assume what's going on. So someone is away from work for let's say a month and we assume that they just don't want to be at work. Let's not assume that. Let's figure out, okay, they've been away for X amount of time. Let's have the first thought of hope that they're okay. I hope that everything is okay and I hope that when they come back, let's just find out that they're okay. First off the bat. When you find out, once you find out that they're okay, then we can move forward is where I'm going. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Well, and I think sometimes too, like, yeah, I mean basic humanity should be like, I hope they're okay, for sure. But the other thing is it's not our business, you know, and so I think that's hard, too. And I know that sometimes, especially if it's like a leave and. And them leaving has put more pressure on us, like, yeah, a lot can come up there. But I think, like, you brought up a kind of a good point in a different way is that. And I might. We might have even talked about. About this last week is that sometimes I notice things coming in, patterns. And one of the things that has been coming up lately is how much we focus on things that are not in our control. And so that would be a great one. You have no control over someone going on leave and what happens after that or why they're gone or any of that stuff. And it'll. You know, I find that when I talk to people who are really, really unsettled and feel like they're spiraling, when we really narrow down what it is they're focusing on, it's almost something. Almost always things that are not at all in their control. And so one thing about hiring and bias and diversity and all of that stuff, but there's another piece to this, and it's self awareness. It's like doing our own work as well. And by doing that, we can support others. Right? It's. We don't pour from an empty cup. I know. We try. We do it a lot. It's not effective. So really understanding ourselves is huge. And then, of course, you have those biases. Those things will come up, up, and, and that's okay. That's human. But yeah, just. So to me, the curiosity is more like, there was somebody telling me about a leader not too long ago, and. And this leader, by all means, comes across as pretty toxic. And I'm hearing some of the stories, and I think, I wonder what happened to them. That's my first thought. It's not like, what a jerk. I'm like, I want to go. I want to. I want to go there. Can you. Can you take me there? I want to go there. I want to, like, I want to talk to this person. I want to find out, like, what. You know, how come? Like, why is this? Because really, we're all just people, right? And so something has shaped us. We were all shaped by some level of trauma or something that's happened in our lives. That's just part of the human experience. And some people have just not had the support. And especially when it comes to people who have a bit of a bully tendency, there's not A lot of people that want to challenge them. Right. That's too high of a risk. And so what happens is that I actually do feel for those people because they have less resources in a way than most. And of course, have they brought it on themselves? Is there still compassion and curiosity to learn why and try to support 100%? Because I just think what an empty life that would be, you know? Yeah, but focus again, focusing on what you can control. When you're feeling that spiraling or you're feeling that frustration, like if you really paused and that's what growth is, right? It's these little series of pauses. It's not some huge, I'm a brand new person in 90 days. That's not how it works. Instead, you start to catch yourself in those moments, get really curious about it, especially your own experience, and then. And see what you come up with. I think most people would be surprised if they give themselves that little window into curiosity. [00:32:51] Speaker B: We might have talked about this throughout this conversation, but I want to dig a little bit deeper in this. How can organizations move beyond simply hiring for diversity to truly create an inclusive environment where all employees are seen, heard, and valued? [00:33:06] Speaker A: I know diversity hiring can be, can be really frustrating for some people, right? When it's like, okay, we're hiring this person because we should versus this person because they're the right fit. I mean, it happens. But, but one thing, I had an interesting conversation with somebody a couple months ago, and it was a guy that had had an experience when he was late teens, 19, 20 years old, and was trying to get a job as a police officer and went through all of the things and, and passed all of the tests and then, and of course, this is many, many years ago. So I'm sure they, they, they've adjusted their wording. HR has adjusted their wording since then. But, you know, you know, he passed on all of this stuff. And then at that time, they said, I'm sorry, we're not hiring you because we're actually trying to hire more women and people of color right now. And he was telling me this story. It was really interesting actually, because he's telling me this story and he's like, yeah, like I, like, I'll never get over that. And I said, hey, yeah, that, that sucks. I get that. I'm like, here's what I want you to know. So you know this man is now mid-50s, right? [00:34:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:03] Speaker A: So I was like, you had that one thing happen to you in your life and it stuck with you all this time. Women, people of color, you know, people who are different, essentially all these marginalized people, that happens twice before lunch daily. And so to sit in that, right, and go, oh, so this thing that I've been carrying for, you know, whatever, 30 years, 30 some years as look at me, I've been so slighted. And then everybody else is like, yeah, we're this, this is daily for us. It's like, that's why things had to change. That's why we had to be more inclusive and be more diverse. But you're right, it kind of took a turn. If we're not hiring the right people. So, yes, whose inclusion should be? Well, one, buffer up your culture. If your culture is struggling, that's your foundation. You have to do the work on that. And it's, and it's hard work, but it's doable if you have any curiosity and desire to fix it. Once you have that and you as a leader especially, you're walking that walk, right? Like, if, if these are the values on the wall, but I'm not leading them, just that's it, you're done. And I think that's it. A lot of it too, right? There's, it's like, okay, people leave these values, but I'm not going to. Well, that's not really how it works. But once you have like some of those really core things in place, and I don't want to make them sound like they're easy to do because it's not right. But it, but it's doable. If you have some, you know, put our egos aside a little bit, decide what's more valuable in the moment and to your business, and then start going, okay, what is really important to us? How can we support that? How can we not even just support it, but how can we nurture it? Like if we, you're gonna, if you're gonna do some growth, that's not just a, you know, an hour long lunch and learn. I mean, that's, that's also. What do we learn from this? How do we show up differently? How do we show up for each other differently and all of these things. And then we start to hire based on the things that are really important in our business and what we really need. And that doesn't matter what you look like. That is, that is a, that's an internal job. And if you're looking at that, then you're just going to hire the right people, period. It doesn't matter what they look like. And I think that if we could get to that point, Think workplace is going to change. [00:35:57] Speaker B: So well said. You probably did this. But before we wrap up, what is one key takeaway that you'd like our listeners to remember from this episode? [00:36:06] Speaker A: I think we can really write people off and we can do it too quickly because they don't think like us. They don't, you know, they, they don't operate the same way that we do. And I think if you have somebody in your company right now that you've mentally written off, my guess would be like, one, that yeah, they don't think like you, so there's a bit of a rub there. Or two, they're operating out of a stress mode because they've been gone so long without being seen or acknowledged. And so if we don't have compassion for those people and an opportunity to support them, you know, we're letting them down and we're also letting the rest of our team down because we know that of course anybody's operating from stress mode. I mean, how quickly does that spread? And, and you know, something you said earlier, Andrew, about like, feedback one, we have this problem with being. Sometimes we want to be nice, but we should be kind. And you know, there's kind. I mean, kindness is, hey, you know what? This is a, this is a struggle, but I'm here to support you versus, oh, I don't really want to say that. That's an uncomfortable conversation, you know, and, or, or it's a little bit worse than that. Right. It's like we just mark somebody off as a, as a problem. But if we're not giving honest sort of relevant feedback with support and our people aren't changing, aren't evolving, aren't being what they want. We want them to be like that really does fall on us. So, yeah, it's kind of a, again, look, look within, like, how are, how are you? How are you supporting your people? And if you don't have that foundation of trust, it's hard too, right? So it all comes back to that culture and that real foundation of trust and safety in your organization. [00:37:36] Speaker B: My call to action today would be for everyone listening to like share and follow follow this episode. Dean, I wanted to take the time to thank you for coming on today. What I admire about you is your positivity, your passion, your ability to communicate and your deep insights. Dean, it was an absolute pleasure to having you have you on as a guest today. So thank you for taking the time to join us today. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate it. Appreciate you. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Oh, I appreciate you as well, friend. On behalf of myself and my guest Dina. I would like to thank you all for listening today day and until next time, be safe. But remember everyone that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you have been listening to. Let's be Diverse with Andrew Stout to [00:38:21] Speaker A: stay up to date with future content, hit Subscribe.