Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today we're going to be discussing something that's super important, and I think it's because most leaders have no idea how irregular routines can cause them to feel anxious or out of sync in this topic. And the topic today is menopause. And I'm so excited to have as my guest today Lisa Boat. Lisa, welcome to the show. I am absolutely thrilled to have you on as a guest today.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Well, Andrew, thanks so much for having me. This is such an important topic and the more people are engaged and involved in this conversation, the better. So thank you for making space for it today.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: You're very welcome. I would make space for you anytime, friend. I feel think very, very highly of you. So I would make space for you anytime, that is for sure. How were things with you? What's going on? Give us the tea, the deets, give us it all. What's happening?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, in the last sort of five months, my whole life changed. So, I mean, there's that, you know, moved, sold all our properties, we moved to a new city. Both of my kids went to university at the same time, making us empty, instant empty nesters. So it's been a big time of transition. My husband and I joke. We just did all of the midlife transitions all at the same time. So, yeah, there's been. There's been lots of big change. The process was really challenging and it has gotten us to a place that I'm really grateful for.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: That is awesome and, and so exciting. And it's amazing when things change and things different and go different and then it's all happens, like you said, all at the same time and then you're like, whoa. And I'm not a parent, but I can just imagine how it is for a parent. You have your kids around all the time and all of a sudden some. So you're having conversation with your. With your significant other and then you're having conversation with your kids and all of a sudden the kids are not there and then it's just the only person that you have at home to have a conversation with is your significant other. So. And not that it's a bad thing, but it's just different. Right? So It's. That's pretty cool that you have that happening and you guys have a little bit of time for yourselves as well. So it's. And it's exciting, probably a little bit tough because the kids are moving on, so it's a little bit different. You're used to having them around. So lots of changes.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah, lots. Lots of big changes. And it is all of those things. There's absolutely grief in the transition of what we've experienced and learning how to be just the two of us again. I'm lucky in that my partner really invested in our relationship. He went out of his way to make sure that we stayed connected. So that transition has been, you know, not. Not without its bumps. There. There's still things that happen when you're, you know, getting used to being just two people again when you're coming from, you know, our family.
Um, and it's one of the things that really comes up in midlife is how our relationships start to shift and change. And so having my own experience with it is really helpful when I'm creating learning spaces or supporting people.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I'm glad to hear that things are going well, things are moving forward, and there's some exciting times coming up for you, so I'm super excited for you on that. Before we get into this amazing topic, though, Lisa, I always have a fun, thought provoking question for my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today?
[00:03:31] Speaker A: I'm ready. Let's do it.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Okay, so your question is, if you could bestow a superpower on your child or loved one, what would it be and why?
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. I think. And this is gonna sound very. So this is gonna sound very stereotypical. So forgive me for everyone who falls outside of the stereotype, because I know that those. Those people exist and I live in a house.
So the superpower I would love to bestow is the ability to see the unseen. By that, I mean, and for those. Those of us who live with whoever. Whoever it is who's in your home who just, like, see exactly what's right in front of them and nothing else. You know, like when you put something on the stairs that needs to go up and three people walk right past it without even noticing it. So that capacity to, like, see the things that they don't see on a regular basis, to open up their perspective, that is superpower I would bestow.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: So I'm laughing because my wife would probably agree with you on this one, and she'd probably say that this superpower would probably be good for me because I could ask her where is. So where. Where's such. Such a thing? And she'd say, it's. It's right there. And I go, okay. And look. And I'm like, I don't see it. She could be in the other. In the living room and I could be in the dining room. And I'd say, well, I don't see it. And then she'd be like, it's right there.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: And.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And then I kind of look around and then I tilt my head a little bit and then it's right there. But you're absolutely right. And I don't know if it's a, if it's a, if it's a man thing. I don't want to stereotype men or whatever. And I don't know if it's a man thing coming from a man. It might be something that we just see what's in front of us and not beside us. But, you know, thank God for significant others and stuff to. Not that they're babysitting us, but they're always the ones that are telling us this is where it is or you left it here or back there thing. And. And sure enough, it's where they say it is.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: Yep. It never fails.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Well, thank you for your great answer and thank you for, as a guide. Thank you for giving me that vision that it's not just me, it might be just all men. So we have to just go.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: It is, it is certainly the men who live in my house.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Well, Lisa, thanks so much for having fun. Why don't we get this show on the road here and start off with you telling us a little about yourself and would like to hear a little bit about your why.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I was an educator for 20 years and it was sort of getting close to the end of pandemic times. And I still have this very visceral memory of sitting on my back deck with a cup of tea and thinking I am on the other side of everything I ever imagined for my life. Because we go through this very. And I. And again, I know everyone's lived. Reality is a little bit different. And there is a very sort of set out structure for us about how we move into adulthood. Right. Like we're, we graduate from, we go to school, we graduate, we find a career, we find a partnership. We do or we do not have children, whatever our family structure looks like. But there's this like, story of all of, of what that time in life looks like and So I was sitting there realizing, like, I had accomplished all the things I had imagined I would in my career. I had, you know, a partnership. I had two children who were about to head off to school. And I just was like, and so now what? There's all this story and narrative about what that time of life looks like, but this midlife time, there's not a lot of story. And we don't really talk about what these transitions look like. And through Covid like many of us did, I had lots of reflections around how do I really want to live the rest of my life? And while there are many things I love about education and teaching, it also is an impossible job and has only continued to get more impossible. And it was having real effects on both my physical and mental health. Like, my hair was falling out. I was having anxiety attacks at work. I was crying to and from school almost every day. And I thought, this is not a sustainable way to live. So. So I was having this, like, realization of I have no idea what comes next, and I can't keep doing what I've been doing because it's really negatively impacting my health. And so I took a year's leave from teaching and I started working in the empty nest space because that was the transition I was going through. And because I take a really holistic approach to things. What was happening to the physical body was also always coming up in conversation, and. And I was making connections to what was happening in my own body as well. And so I took a menopause coaching course at that point and was completely blown away by everything we do not know about how our bodies work and how they change during this perimenopause, menopause, post menopause transition. And at the same time as I was graduating from that course report came out from the Menopause foundation of Canada with some staggering statistics because it was specifically focused on menopause in the workplace. And one of the main statistics was that 1 in 10 women are leaving the workforce at the peak of their careers because of unsupported menopause and perimenopause symptoms. And then all the pieces fell into place for me. I realized that was absolutely part of my story. Perimenopause was playing a role in what my experience was. And I didn't. And I didn't even know it. I wouldn't change my decision that I made. And it would have been great to have made a fully informed decision. And so I saw all these pieces come together, realize that this is necessary work that needs to happen. Women organizations, all humans need to understand what is happening during this transition and how we can support women to stay in the workplace if that's what they choose, because we deserve it. We deserve good quality care so that we can have really good quality of life and long term health outcomes and stay and continue to make a difference in our organizations if that's what we really want.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: So much. I want to pack in here. So first off, your story is very similar to maybe not the menopause part, but the the looking at as far as your job goes and having anxiety and reflecting on your career. Since I've started this podcast two years ago, it is something that I knew that it was out there, but I've really began to see it even more and more starting this podcast. So it is something so prevalent and it's just out there and it's such a story that's repetitive and I hear it over and over again and it's not for any good reasons. Things need to be fixed and things this is why we need to talk about these things. So that is the first thing that I wanted to reflect on. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is when you mentioned the empty nest space. So you and I were talking a little bit before the podcast started and I think in the workplace, so we're not just talking about leaders, but co workers I think have to be a little bit more sympathetic to what could be going on in someone's life. And we're going to talk about this, I'm sure throughout the episode here today, but we just never know what could be going on. And it could be that they're dealing with menopause or they don't know, but they know that something's wrong or like you said, an empty nest. They could be an empty nester for the first time in their lives and it's affecting them and they didn't realize that it would but it is. And I talk a lot about bringing your work home and bringing your home to work and which is what life people call word like work life balance. I'm not a firm believer in that because I do believe that you're going to bring some of your stuff from work home and some of your stone stuff from vice versa.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: So absolutely it is.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: It's so imperative that we understand that.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up because it's one of the things that I try to really emphasize is the intersection of what's happening physically and the and what's happening in the context of Our lives. Because in menopause worlds where I live most of my time, we're getting pretty good at talking about, like, the physical symptoms and how we treat that and how we can improve our quality of life in that way. That's only one piece of the puzzle. However, at midlife, there tends to be a cluster of big changes that are happening at the same time as these changes are happening in our bodies. So, you know, I mentioned a few of them right off the top. Right. Like relationships might be changing. Moving is something that could possibly be part of that. We're either like, downsizing, potentially kids off to university, caring for older parents or grandparents, or, you know, in the midst of all of that transition that was happening in my life, my dad passed away. So there's a grief. Like, there's grief in so many different places in the changes that are happening. And it's really important to acknowledge that the physical changes are impacting the way I show up at work, but also so are the demands on my time in all of these different areas and massive transitions that are happening. So we cannot talk about one without the other. And you're absolutely right. Having more compassion for each other because, yeah, yes, that's midlife. And at every stage there are challenges that people are experiencing and recognize the humanity of the humans who come through your door every day because, you know, it's a really. It's a very entrenched idea in our society that we leave, you know, our identities and what's happening in our lives at door when we walk through it to go to work. And that is not reality.
It's not how our brains work. It's. It is not how we react in this world. It is not a reality. But we keep trying to force ourselves into that, and we are seeing the detrimental impacts of that in lots of ways.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: So you talked a little bit about it, but I think it's a great segue to what you just said. As we get into this conversation here, what I want to ask you is, and you might have talked a little bit about it, but I want to you go a little bit more in depth. How might menopause impact a women's career trajectory? Because I'm sure that it does.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it absolutely does. Before I answer that question, I just want to talk a little bit about, like, perimenopause, menopause, post menopause, and some of the symptoms, because they're important in the answer to that question.
And one of the things I find when I'm working with individuals and organizations is that people don't even realize that they are in perimenopause. So perimenopause is a newer term. Like five years ago, I had never even heard that term. And it is the period of time before menopause. And menopause itself is actually one day. It's the day we realize we have not had a cycle in 12 full months. Everything after that is post menopause, which is the rest of our lives. Everything leading up to that is perimenopause. And Dr. Mary Claire Haver, who's one of the leading physicians and researchers in this work, describes it as per chaos, which is a really good description because what starts happening and it can happen. So the average age of menopause is between 48 and 52. And we're talking about like, that's the average, right? So the range is huge. Per menopause can start up to 10 years before that. So you could very likely be experiencing perimenopause symptoms in your mid to late. And. And that is something that a lot of people don't know or recognize. And at this time in our culture, it's also a time often where people have young children, so they are feeling like they're having all of these symptoms because of the young children that they have at home, which is part of it. It's also likely that they could be experiencing the beginning of perimenopause. So what's happening during perimenopause is our hormones are fluctuating. So estrogen, progesterone and testosterone are doing this unpredictable dance in our bodies. Because the communication system that was set up for our hormones to tell each system in our body what to do was really well functioning for a long time. And then estrogen starts to decline, and that messaging system doesn't work the way it did before.
So when it's ovulation time, that system is saying, okay, we need the estrogen to release an egg. That estrogen is like not feeling it today. And so when there's more pressure, like, no, no, like legit estrogen, wake up, we need you. And they're like, oh, fine. And then there's this flood because it takes more estrogen at this point to release an egg. So it is causing chaos in our bodies that impacts every system in our body. So our bodies are covered in estrogen receptors from top to toe.
So it is not just our reproductive system that is impacted. It is our cardiovascular system. It is digestion, it is mental health and well being, it is skin, hair, it is literally everything.
And so what happens at work? And the top five symptoms I tend to talk about in terms of workplace are brain fog, word recall, hot flushes, and unpredictable emotional states. So often when I start presenting this information, people will say, lisa, I thought I was in the early stages of dementia. And I see, like, looking back now, I can also see it in my own career, where things that used to be really easy were suddenly hard and they were work or I was a person. I didn't ever have to write anything down. I always just remembered. And all of a sudden I found myself having to make lists. And word recall is one of my biggest challenges. My partner and I are getting really good at charades, but it is, it's a ton of energy to have our bodies be doing all these things, having to constantly adjust to doing things in new ways that we didn't have to do it before. And it can really impact your confidence if you are someone who, as part of your role, you have to make presentations or, you know, engage in intense conversation with someone else and suddenly you can't find the word you need or you just completely lose your train of thought as you're like, mid sentence.
Can. It really impacts how you see yourself, how you feel like you're capable of doing your job and, and your confidence around how your colleagues see you. So it has, it can have tremendous impact.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: From what you're telling me, I can, I mean, coming from a man's point of view, I mean, brain fog, you could definitely see it. I, I've seen it as I've gotten older, I'd be talking about something with, specifically with my wife, and then there's a somebody's name or something, and I just, like, I just can't think of their name. And for some reason, and then it takes me a bit and then I think of it, and then I think maybe I could see possibly, and you could correct me or tell me if this something that could be possibly happening as well is because when you're trying to think of something and you can't think of it, then the frustration comes in a little bit more because you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe that. I can't think of that. And then you're starting to get even more and more frustrated because you can't think of it. So of course it's going to take you a while to, to relax, and then usually it comes to you. But during that frustration part, it's very, very hard. So I could definitely see some adjustments of the brain fog and, and the Hot flashes. And I know we'll probably talk about this a little bit as we get into it, but I'm sure there's a little bit of embarrassment because you just don't want to talk about it. You don't want to mention to your co worker or your boss even, because you are. I can imagine that women are embarrassed about it and it's not something that they want to talk about, like, what's for supper? What'd you do last weekend?
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Right, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are challenges that face women all throughout our careers. And this one, really personal.
And it impacts, yes, it's impacting our health. It also impacts the scope of our identity because this is such a massive change and society really values women when they are in their fertility phase. And all of a sudden you're on the other side of that and feeling like, well, who am I now? And a lot of the time feeling completely invisible. And absolutely, these are not conversations that are comfortable to be had with our employee, with our employers. And yet it is such a significant piece of this, of this puzzle to the, to the most basic of things. When you're thinking about how you dress in the morning, one of the biggest things I have to think about is like, well, how much is that going to show how much I'm sweating?
And so all of my decisions are made around that. And that alone takes up so much space in our brains. Right? Like, I would think about when I was going out to work every day in that, in that traditional way, like the amount of energy it took me just to get out the door and then get to work. And then I still had the entire day ahead of me. And so by the end of the day, completely drained and exhausted, and yet I needed to go home and do all of my responsibilities at home at the same time. And so we force ourselves to. Through these cycles and that's when we really find ourselves, you know, starting to fray at the seams, right? That's when we really start having, noticing the emotional impacts, the physical toll that is taking, how challenging everything feels. And that's why that statistic is so prevalent. One in 10 women, that's. That is significant, costing our Canadian economy. Three point. And women at this stage are really valuable to their organizations, right? The institutional knowledge that they hold, the relationships they have built, the professional development that they've done over time, all of the experience that they have. So when someone with all of that background knowledge and wisdom just walks out the door, that has real impacts for the organizations that they're leaving it most certainly does.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: I almost talk about if you can't find a seat at the table, then find another table. But I could just imagine that somebody who is going through perimenopause or menopause, you're talking about not just finding a seat at the table, but finding a table that will accept you for possible things that you might be going through and being comfortable to talk about it as well. So now you're talking about being seen, heard, value and understood. Now you're talking about. And the understood part heightened because you want people to see you as a value person, but also understanding that you could be going through some cycles and some things with your health so that it might affect things on a certain day, but it's not going to be like that all the time or every day. It's just some days and you can't help it.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's why it's so important to have these conversations with everyone.
Like, currently, the women, the work that I'm doing with organizations, it's almost, almost. It's almost entirely women who are involved in these conversations. Although I would like to give a shout out. The city of Barrie had me come in and do a session for them. And the fire chief was there in that conversation. And that was incredible that there was, you know, a male leader in that position there, engaged in that conversation, trying to make a better work environment for everyone on his team. So that, that was really significant to me that that person was there and engaged in the con and that needs to be happening more. And the strategy, like, so there's policy like that we can have the policy conversation because that needs to happen so that these conversations are ease and that there are already policies in place that are supportive. So the women experiencing this don't feel like they're also having to like, go through this and advocate for their needs. So the policy discussion is important. And the in the moment strategy that I like to share actually comes from the Ontario Kindergarten curriculum. And it's no name acknowledge and ask for help. So, and, and this is a strategy that is useful for anyone, regardless of what your experience is. Like, you don't have to be menopausal to, to use this strategy. It just recognizes, going back to earlier, what we were talking about, recognizing our humanity, that instead of that like forgetting everything that happened and leaving it at the door. So if I wake up in the morning and I have had a terrible sleep, in my case because there was, you know, night sweats happening and sleep disturbance is a big part of Perimenopause and then I just, well, try to ignore it, go into work, try to do whatever I had scheduled. When we force ourselves, we know what happens. Generally something's gonna go sideways because we just didn't have the capacity for it. So instead of pretending and forcing our way through, we say, okay, I had a really bad sleep last night. I'm going to acknowledge that when I go into work. I'm going to, to whoever that may impact on this day say, hey, this is where I'm at right now. I'm totally exhausted. I have this presentation that I have to have done by the end of the day and I don't have the capacity for it. Can you please help me with this today? And then if you need something tomorrow, I'll be, I'll be there to support you. So we know, we name, we acknowledge and we ask for help and it's just, it's a foundational practice for organizations because could you imagine if that's the way we operated, how much better we would all be able to work together?
[00:25:25] Speaker B: I just love your approach on that at a no name acknowledge. It's just, it's amazing that. And you're absolutely right. It's something that I think we can all do and I think we could do a little bit more of. And I think we can.
I think if we did that, we'd have a little bit more understanding as far as, like I was saying earlier, of what somebody could be going through or whether it's a co worker or even our leaders, if they're having a day, what could they possibly be going through and a little bit of understanding and that vulnerability factor as well. You mentioned having the police chief at a conference in Barrie.
My question to you is, what I want to know is, which is amazing to me by the way, that he was there, I agree with you 100%. Why do you think leaders lack a comprehensive understanding of menopause and its impact?
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Well, I mean the systemic nature of patriarchy is pretty strong and it's not something we've talked about, right? So I say this a lot. I feel like it is the work of women of our generation to bring attention to this. Every, every generation of women has had their issue that they needed to advocate for, which is what has gotten us to hear. So this is not like, is only appreciation to everyone who has come before us because it's gotten us, gotten to us to this place. And this one is ours, this is our place. You know, people have not talked about what this transition actually looks like, feels like how it impacts us. It was completely silent, you know, my mom, so my mom died at 52 and I was 30. So she and I didn't ever have this conversation. But when I was doing my menopause training, her mom, my grandmother, who was 91 at the time, I said to her, because she was the person who, who I could ask, I was like, what was your experience like? And at 91 years old, she said, you are the first person who's ever asked me what my experience was. We just didn't talk about it.
So it has never been something that has been even considered for the humans experiencing it, let alone the organizations that they work within. And then when we think about the fact that we, so we lose women during childbearing years, we're losing women during menopause, and we see that reflected in this in the humans who are in senior leadership positions in the majority of organizations. Yes, there are organizations that have women in power in powerful positions. I'm not saying that doesn't exist. And the majority of humans at that stage are still humans who express themselves as men. And if we haven't been talking about it, they certainly have not been talking about it or even considering, considering how that is impacting the employees in their organizations. Right. They just see I had someone who I was working with who said, yeah, like my pro, I wasn't able to do all the things that I could do before because I was experiencing all of these changes that were happening that just really impacted my ability to focus. And so like I was, I was given a warning, either like, get it together or you're out. And that is, that's not, that is not uncommon. But, but the truth is we need to see those employees as important and valuable and we need to give them the time that we need to figure out what's going on with us. And when, when we're doing that, it can feel like a full time job. Like the number of appointments I was going, I was going to, to get started on like menopause, hormone therapy, the blood work that needs to be done. Seeing my naturopath, seeing my doctor, seeing a therapist, seeing an osteopath, seeing like old things, it, it takes time to figure out all of the different areas that were being impacted, develop a plan, implement that plan, start to feel better. And when that happens, then we can go back because we have, have the care that we need and we can go back and we can be ourselves again. But it takes time to work through, work through that process and we need to Be supported through it and not punished because of it.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: I love your approach. I love what you just said there. And I think if I was to say to you, Lisa, and I know I may not have to say it every day, but if I could say to you a few times a week, Lisa, how are you doing today? How are you feeling? I don't have to get into the dramatics or the, the in depth of what you are dealing with health wise, but just asking how you feel, I think would go miles and miles for that relationship between leader and co worker or co worker and co worker.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: It means so much to somebody just to ask. I know when I ask somebody and I send a message to them and ask them, how are you doing today? How are you feeling? I just thought I'd check in and see how you're doing and I may not do that every day, but just once on Blue Moon, I'll do that. I've done it with you, see how you're doing. It means a lot to somebody just to say, hey, is this person checking in?
It's kind to them to do that and I really appreciate that. I'm not asking you anything personal or a personal wise. I just want to know how is Lisa doing generally? And I think like you said, the systematic aspect of it, I think people are so afraid because I guess they just don't know like what to ask maybe or how to handle it. It's kind of like when someone is. You mentioned your, your mom passing away and I know how you feel because both my parents are gone as well. So some people just don't know like what to say sometime, how to deal with it or what you know, because they're dealing with grief. And I think we forget that people who have gone through that or have lost a loved one that we never get over that. And when someone is, has health issues, we're never going to get over that. If it's something that's gonna, that's there, it's not something that's a cold that's just gonna take a couple of Advil and you feel better. This is something that's gonna be ongoing from now till the end of time and we just have to understand that. So. But maybe people are just afraid to ask because maybe knowing what it is or have or being aware of what it is, they just don't know how to. But I'm gonna be very vulnerable here and I'm gonna say if you just come out and say how are you feeling? Doesn't matter what they're dealing with, they're gonna accept it and they're gonna appreciate it.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And if we're talking about the, like, employee to leader position, I would say also asking how they are and how can I support you.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: Which is the, which is the really important part. Right. Like co worker to coworker, employee to employee. You may not have the, you may not have the facility to say and, like, what can I do for you to make that better other than be a good person and be here to be supportive when you need it. But that leadership part, how can I support you? Is really important. Otherwise it kind of feels performative. Right. Like, you're asking me how I feel, but not making any accommodation for what my experience is and how you can make the work experience better for me. And so that, I think that part is really, is really important in the leadership conversation.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Yep. I think that's a great ad, Lisa. And I 100% agree with that. Personally, I will never tell someone how they should feel. Yes. By asking them for support. I 100 agree with you.
It would definitely heighten it for sure. 100.
So what are the cultural influences on menopause?
[00:32:52] Speaker A: They're vast, right? There's.
They're experienced in lots of different ways. Right. Like even family to family. So I was in a session I was leading this weekend, I had someone say, you know, like, menopause doesn't seem like a big, beautiful, big deal to me because my family were always really open about it and we just talked about what they were experiencing and it was like, great, I'm glad that you had that experience.
But the family, like, this person's experience was very different, where no one talked about it and it was completely unseen. And then there are the broader cultural experiences as well, where in some areas, like indigenous cultures, often menopause was seen as the term was a second spring.
Right. It is a time that is much more revered in the life of a woman than in our, you know, waspy white culture, where it is like, well, you're past your prime, sister. Like, move along. And there's not a lot of space made for this story, which is, you know, why so many of us are doing this work at this point in time to create that space.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: The way it impacts women also is different based on, on race. Like, black women have much higher experiences of cardiovascular disease and risk, and they have more severe hot flushes and night sweats. And it. So this, the ramifications are significant. In East Asian populations, it tends to have a later onset. So their Perimenopause can be a little bit longer, starting at a later time. And then the way cultures, they're like individual cultures see that are all very different. In some places it really not encouraged to be discussed. Like we do not talk about what happens with a woman's body.
And in others there, there is more support and space to have those conversations. So it's really complex and can also like it's part of that identity conversation. So when I start a learning session around menopause, I always start with intersectionality and have all of the bubbles up of all of the different aspects. Not all of them because we can't represent all of them, but as many as I can elements of people' identity so they can really think through. Like how does race impact it? How does my ethnicity impact this? How does my relationship status impact how I'm feeling or, or how is menopause impacting how I'm having relationships or seeing myself? So it's really important to take that time and consider because every woman's experience is completely different and unique based on all of their lived experiences and realities.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: You talked about your conference earlier and you were saying that met that one person said, oh, we don't have that issue because everybody in our family talks about that. And I think that's probably a good reason why this probably topic is not talked about because of the assumption that everybody's situation is the same and we can't think of that. And I know that everyone's situation, because my situation is certainly not the same as yours, Lisa, or any of the other listeners and theirs is different to mine.
So I can assume that, well, mine is this way, so everybody else's is the same way. So in this situation I would imagine that someone who is dealing with, well, with anything health wise, but with menopause or perimenopause, it's going to be different for everybody. Because you hear the word menopause, we can't be like, oh my God, they're suffering menopause. We better like be careful, we better back off because everyone is different and everybody deals with it differently.
So we have to take it one step at a time. Just like a leader who would have four people on their team. They might have to deal with each person differently because they, they are motivated or engaged in different things or different ways.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is very individual. And in general, I will say in North America we just haven't talked about it full stop. Like, yes, there are those, there are individual.
So I always try to separate for people like individual versus collective experience.
Right? Because yes, you are going to have your own individual experience of it. But when we look at the trend across, across society or across our collective, the trend is strong that we have not had these conversations. And as being a former educator, we do a really poor job in terms of education. Like we will. We do a decent job of talking about menstruation, of talking about reproduction.
And then there's generally one line and it's like, and one day your period stops and then you're in menopause. And that's all like, that is all the information that is out there.
And this. And that is true in the medical community, which is the other huge issue in this, is that in the early 2000s, so prior to the early 2000s, there was a Women's Health Institute report that was released that really did a disservice to women and their experience with perimenopause and menopause, and that these numbers are not exact. But prior to that report, about 40% of women were on menopause hormone therapy. HRT, it was called at the time, hormone replacement therapy. That report came out saying that hormone therapy had an increased risk of breast cancer, which was incorrect and really problematic. And more women ended up dying from broken hips than ever did from an increased risk of, of breast cancer because of osteopenia and osteoporosis that was no longer treated by menopause. Hormone therapy did a huge disservice. And because there was no longer a pharmaceutical treatment for menopause, they stopped teaching about it in medical school.
So there are decades of physicians who have little to no training in how to identify perimenopause and how to support women through it in strategies. And I don't want to say like, like menopause hormone therapy is one piece of a much larger puzzle. And that's why, like, it infuriates me that they just stopped teaching about it because there wasn't a pharmacological solution. Because there's also stress management, sleep, nutrition and movement that are all really key in creating good long term health outcomes. But we now also have a population of medical providers who have no idea how to support women through, through this transition at all.
And so we're not talking about it in society because. And we also aren't talking about it in medical communities. So there's, there's tons of work to be done there. And how we approach women, like really when we had hit our mid-30s, our physician should be saying, okay, so you're in your mid-30s. These are some of the symptoms of perimenopause. Just start keeping your eye open for them and when you start noticing that, come back and we'll have that conversation. But that's not our reality right now.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: So in closing, what is one takeaway that you'd like our audience to get from this episode?
[00:39:50] Speaker A: So one, you do not have to accept that this is just the way your life is now. There is so much we can do to improve our quality of life and have that long term health span that we absolutely deserve.
So don't take. And when you're talking to your healthcare practitioner, don't take no for an answer. Don't take, you're too young for an answer. Don't take, don't take answers. Know that you there absolutely is healthcare out there that is available and there are people like me who can support you to get, to get that and to advocate for you. And two, your workplaces also have a responsibility to create a place where you can continue to work, to be, to contribute in all of the ways that you contribute if that is the decision that you want to make, that you want to decide. So advocating for professional learning and for policy changes are really important. And again, there are people out there doing the work. I'm only, I'm only one of them. There's, there's a significant, there's a community of people who are here to support you. You're not alone. You deserve good health care and you deserve a workplace that values you.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: I love all that. And I think it's super important that we understand that we are never alone, that we do have the support of people, whether you understand it or not. But as long as you have that support system or know that you have that, that support system, them, it's, it's super important. I wanted to take the time to thank you for coming on today. I just admire your, your ability to speak in a caring and compassionate nature. Lisa is truly inspiring to me. We have had some amazing conversations back and forth, messaging and also over the phone. And I remember the day when we first spoke and it was a truly inspirational conversation. And I got off the phone and I was like, man, this she is like awesome. And I just was so happy me that I had that conversation with you and that we connected and that we met and we've continued and that was a while ago that we connected. So to be connected and still in conversations with each other and still have the ability to, and the time because we're both busy, but to have the time to speak to one another and, and say how each other is doing is super important and super valuable to me as a rapport builder. And I just admire you for who you are, what you stand for, and just your kindness and compassion. So thank you again for, for coming on. I really appreciate it.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: Well, thank you. And I see you and I appreciate you as well. Thank you for making this space and thank you for your patience with me because it has been, it has been some time through all of the transitions and changes. So I thank you. Thank you for making this, this space for people to have these conversations. It's really meaningful.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: No problem, Lisa. We always are patient and we always wait for good people and good things come to those who wait. And you were a good person. So I was always in there waiting and I knew that eventually this today was going to happen. So I'm super, super thrilled that we were able to get this done today. On behalf of myself and my guest, Lisa, I'd like to take the time to thank you all for listening today. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everyone, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you.
[00:42:59] Speaker A: Have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content. Hit subscrib.
