Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. One of the most powerful tools that humans possess is the ability to want to succeed. Typically, we consider success to be positive. We encourage ourselves, our children, and our co workers to be successful as they can be. But when is it too much? So our topic today is achievement addiction. How do we recognize it and address it? And I'm so happy to have as my guest today Sarah Bryant. Sarah, welcome to the show. I am can't tell you how excited, honored and thrilled that I have you on here today.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: I'm excited to be here. I think we've been talking for this, about this for like a year, maybe a while. Yeah, you've been busy with your podcast guests, so finally room for me to squeeze in here. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: That's awesome, Sarah. I always have you on my radar. I always wanting to have you on. So just letting you know you were never forgotten. It was just a time fitting you the time or picking the right time. And today is it and I'm super thrilled about it. Sarah, how's things with you? How are things going? Give us the tea, the deets, give us it all. What's going on, friend? What's happening?
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Lots things are busy. I'm involved in many things. I wear many hats. I have lots of writing projects, lots of therapy clients, some speaking engagements and things coming up. I feel like sometimes I'm. I'm all over the place and I wear like 20 different hats.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Wow, Busy lady. Sometimes it keeps you out of trouble, though.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Sometimes, yes.
Depends on what you're busy with.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, listen, I'm glad to hear that things are going well. The audience can't see, but Sarah has had a smile on her face since the moment I said we're recording. So I'm super pumped to have this conversation with her because I know we're going to get some great input from her and I'm super excited to get into that. But before we begin that, Sarah, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today, friend?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Man, I guess so. Here we go.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Your question today is you were granted three wishes. What are they and why?
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Well, damn, I don't wow. Okay, so three wishes granting. So people probably think, whatever, genie in a bottle. But I'm going to think a little bit more Magic wand. Ish. So if I can magic wand something with a wish, it would be trauma, informed care and leadership everywhere in one fell swoop. Why? Because that benefits all people in all places and spaces. It increases safety, it reduces harm, it opens up curiosity and acceptance. Inclusion of everyone despite ability, life experiences, background language, whatever. And so that is one wish that I would enact another wish. So that would be good for everybody. I mean, I guess. But if we're honest, like, I probably want one of these wishes for me. So I'm going to wish however it works out. Financial security and stability. Who doesn't want that? So it's not necessarily a million dollars, but I just want to not have to worry about it for the rest of my life and do the work that I want to do. So whatever that would look like if all my stuff was taken care of from now until the day I die, wish so then I could dive into the work that I want to do and not have to worry about, you know, how much income I'm making. I think that my impact could be greater if I didn't have to worry about, you know, paying the bills. So I, I, that would be a dream come true if I could do that and then focus on the work and the things I want to do. I think the why on that is pretty obvious. Who doesn't want that, right? Like, okay. I mean, I still, I'm a person. Like, we're going to talk about achievement addiction today. I'm a person who likes to achieve things and to work. So I don't think that I wouldn't. But it would be nice not to have the worry about everything I have to pay for, you know, so I could free up my brain space for some other things. And I don't know who wouldn't want that. Okay, that's wish number two. Wish number three. I wish all my dogs could live forever. Maybe everybody's dogs could live forever. It's just not enough time. I love my fur babies. Still wish I had my first fur baby thinking about her birthday is in February. But yeah, let's go with that. And the lie is like, again, why not? Anybody that has a fur baby, you want to keep your baby forever. Anybody that has any baby wants to keep your baby forever and not lose them. And so that's what I wish. They just bring so much joy and peace and comfort and companionship to so many People, me included. Like, it's hard for me to feel alone when my dog literally follows me around, touching me with her nose. Like, she's touching me as I'm walking around. She has to be touching, touching. As I move around the house. The dog is, like, glued to me. I can't feel alone when that's the case. And so I love having them around. And they're great for people. Right. I. I know pets are great for other people too. So those are my wishes off the top of my head with no prep.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Well, listen, so when I do these questions, I always kind of think about what the possible answers could be from the yes. And I mentioned to you before we started taping today that I admire you and your work. And your first answer, which you wish would be everybody be trauma informed and everybody. That to me, shows the depth of your personality because here you are, I'm asking you for. To get. Grant your, what, three wishes that you would want. And your first response is others. And that is super amazing. That's such a great quality to have to, you know, to think of others. I know some people will say we should think of ourselves before others, and I do believe that in some instances. But in this case, I love that because that just means that you have care and compassion for people and you're willing to do whatever it takes to. To help them out. And I. I think that's truly admirable. So I just loved your answers.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: I just loved it. Thank you so much for having fun with me. Let's get into this. Why don't we start off with you telling us a little about you, your story and your why, and people can find out why. I admire you so much. I'm sure there's gonna be others that are gonna figure that out pretty fast.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Gosh. Right? This is like the many hats thing. So, like, how can I do this as efficiently as possible? Okay, I'm a psychotherapist. That is like my. My oldest job. Basically. I've been a psychotherapist for 15 years. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I have background work experiences in public mental health facilities and then in my private practice. I have been treating adults with mental health diagnoses in my private practice for almost nine years. And that is my bread and butter, my main business. I started that business up by myself, and so that is something I am pretty proud of. And turned over a profit for the last nine years. With no business experience, no business degree, no business coach, no business attorney. And starting my practice was Intentional. It was a pivotal moment for me in my career because I was near burning out for some of the reasons we're going to talk about today and achievement, addiction. That was happening at the last workplace that I was in before I started my private practice. So I knew I wanted to be a therapist long time ago in high school. Everything I did after that was and set out to be exactly in this position now practicing in my own private practice and working with clients that way, it's very rewarding work. It's very draining work. And so after 15 years of providing direct care and never taking more than 10 days off at a time, I'm kind of tired, I'm a little burned out. Not fully, but it's draining. You know, especially like since the pandemic and into now being a therapist is like a lot y'all. And people are struggling with a lot. And so that is just a lot to hold and I'm a container for that for people. And so in the last couple of years I've been pivoting some of my skills to, for my own, you know, balance wellbeing and self care to create some, some new, some new ways to work, some new ways to help people, since that's what I like to do, but outside of the one to one space. So psychotherapist by trade, but I am also a subject matter expert in mental health and trauma informed care and leadership through Integrate Network, which is a trauma informed affinity group, a bunch of business owners that champion for trauma informed care and trauma informed leadership. And we all come together and kind of collaborate on some initiatives for and that's been a really rewarding experience and a place where I can write, connect with others, speak like get things out there about trauma informed care. You know, one of my wishes there is that this exists everywhere. This is not a clinical skill, this is a people skill. And so that is part of what I do. And with that, with those skills and that role and responsibility, you know, I've been able to dive into some other stuff. So trauma informed coaching and trauma informed consultation. You know, coaching looks like a lot of the still in the one to one space. But it's different than psychotherapy. You know, it's more like we're moving forward with a goal rather than digging into the past so much figuring out how we got here. And so I offer that to people. I specialize in setting boundaries, compassionate self care and burnout. Partly because this is what a lot of these things I have experienced and then as a result done a lot of research and diving in what to do about these things, how to recover from these things. And so I know a lot about them now and feel confident walking other people to healthier versions of themselves. I mean, I'm doing this, you know, every day for 15 years in psychotherapy, so lots of people skills there. And then in my trauma informed consulting work, this is for individuals or businesses or organizations on trauma informed care and trauma informed leadership, mental health, psychological safety, those types of things in workplaces and volunteer organizations and nonprofits and how we include these principles and practices in everything from mission statements and bylaws and marketing to leadership and management and company structures and things like that. From where I sit, the landscape needs to change. Leadership is not good. Tons of people would agree with me. And it's harming people more than it's helping anybody. And we need to change there so that people can thrive, they can be successful, people can be healthier, less sick, less physically ill, less mentally ill, more satisfied in life, you know, and just a more calm and peaceful in their nervous system than what we have going on right now. So that's a lot about me and all the things that I do. Why I do this probably because I like people. I mean, if I get back down to it when, when I'm in a good space myself, I enjoy people, I enjoy learning about people, I enjoy hearing their stories, I enjoy helping and educating where I, where I can. I really enjoy watching people make transformational change and getting to walk with people through that journey is like I pretty rewarding, even though at times draining. And I have been through a lot of things myself. Andrew knows that about me. I've been through many things in life. I've had many challenges, many tragic and traumatic things happen. My own struggles with poor mental health and poor self care.
And I know that the impact that that has had on me in my life and relationships with people, a lot of the negative impact that has had and how alone and isolated I have felt in a lot of those things. And that is part of my, my why all of this work helps heal me too. And then if I can see other people come to healing and wholeness, then you know, it's just a slam dunk for me. So I do the work I do because I, I care about people and I care about people's wellness, including my own. And you know, I care about the world and the landscape we live in supporting that wellness for people. And they're. I'm a social worker. So as long as I've been a social worker, you know, we champion for the marginalized and disenfranchised. I'm a natural born advoc. I will advocate for me, I will advocate for you, I will advocate for anybody, 99% of the time. Take the moral high ground. And I think that that is very important. And not enough people do that.
And I've maybe done it so much so that it's been to my detriment focusing too much on other people. And so that's why, you know, I've also pivoted to focus more on self care, which means putting firmer limits and boundaries on work, on relationships, on other things, so that I can have this balance. Which is why I feel really confident walking anybody else through this. Whether it's through any of my digital products, into the one to one space, any of my speaking engagements, you know, or corporate or organizational training on this kind of thing, I feel confident that I can walk people to something different. I've done it for myself, I've helped a bunch of other people do that. And I see the brightness maybe come back in people when they, when they can understand what they need, how to access it without causing themselves more harm, and then therefore like propelling into whatever they want to be, whoever they want to be in life. This is why the name of my businesses are Thrive and Shine. Because that I want to get people thriving and shining, right, like the kind of brighter, brighter space to be in.
Oftentimes people show up to work with me, whether it's, you know, quote unquote, on my couch, my virtual couch for psychotherapy or otherwise, maybe usually surviving or barely surviving, right, in surviving mode. And I want to move people out of surviving and into thriving. And a lot of times that's a lot of internal work, a lot of external support and accountability and validation and time and consistency to reach that transformational change from surviving to thriving. I've done it myself a number of times in life. Definitely been in spaces where I'm barely keeping my head above water, and then in other spaces where I really feel like I'm thriving. And of course it feels better to be thriving than surviving. Although sometimes that's what we need to do to get to the other. So that's why I do this, to see people move to thriving and shining in their. In their own unique, authentic way.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: I love that intro. I love everything that you said there. I love the. I love what you stand for. I'm gonna say this, and then we'll go on to get into our. The mean and bones of a conversation here. But you know, your, your willingness to, to step out and talk about things that may not be in your, your, your comfort zone, but things that you've dealt with and then you, and you're helping people through that is truly inspiring because you, you've been through it and you understand and you're sympathetic. And I know I've sent this to you a couple times and I said it to many people. I will never tell anybody how they should feel. And I expect that nobody should tell me how I should feel. I just love that you, even though you're understanding of it, of what you're dealing with, you're not telling them. Well, you should feel like this, because this is how I feel. You're listening and, and finding out what's truly impacting them and helping them. So I truly admire that. Our topic today is achievement addiction. Sarah, what is the meaning of achievement addiction?
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to talk about, I'm going to, I'm going to give some definitions. I'm going to talk about addiction, behavioral addiction, and then achievement addiction. So I'm going to answer this sort of in three parts.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: So before we get to the meaning of and maybe the definition of achievement addiction, what is addiction in general and. Addiction in general is a neuropsychological disorder characterized by a persistent and intense urge to use a drug or engage in a behavior that produces a natural reward despite substantial harm and other negative consequences. Classic signs of addiction in general include compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, preoccupation with a substance or a behavior, and continued use or continued engagement in that behavior despite negative consequences. Habits and patterns associated with addiction are typically characterized by immediate gratification, this short term reward and coupled with delayed negative effects, long term costs or consequences. So that's addiction in general. It's a persistent and intense urge to use something that rewards the brain and causes potential harm and negative consequences. Okay, okay. So if we get into behavioral addiction, this refers to compulsion to engage in a natural reward, which is a behavior that is inherently rewarding or desirable or appealing despite these adverse and negative consequences. Some preclinical evidence, which meanings they haven't gone to like clinical trials or clinical proof, but and maybe, maybe they have since then, or they're sort of in the works. But preclinical evidence has demonstrated that there are marked increases in the expression of the delta phosphate B gene. This is a gene through repetitive and excessive exposure to a natural reward. And this induces the same behavioral effects and neuroplasticity in the brain effects that Occurs in a drug addiction.
Substance addiction plays on a number of parts in our brain. Mainly the motivation, reward, and drive centers. And behavioral addictions do the same thing. Basically, they sort of hit the same areas, the brain. And so this does tell us that addiction can exist without psychotropic drugs or substances. These addictions can be passive or active, but they commonly contain reinforcing features which are found in most addictions. Which is sort of this like, short term reward cycle, but long term consequence. And we just kind of keep doing that. So some of the behavioral addictions that other people Are probably really familiar with, I'll just list them off. Or sexual behavior or sex addiction, Eating, gambling, playing video games, shopping, Are all associated with compulsive behaviors. And these have been shown to activate the mesolimbic pathway and other parts of the reward system in the same way that a drug or substance addiction does. And so it's kind of wreaking just as much havoc on your brain, Even though you are not ingesting a substance. With these addictions, Brain changes occur with behavior. We know this to be a good thing in neuroplasticity, when we want to make a positive change, we want to change neural networks and connections. But this also happens in a negative way. Negative neuroplasticity change. If we're engaging in addictive behaviors, Then it's going to change. What happens in substance addiction is, you know, the motivation, drive, and reward systems in your brain are impacted. So naturally, those fire with things we do, Things in life that we find rewarding, Maybe going on vacation, Eating your favorite food, food, Getting a hug from somebody you care about. Like, all of those can hit your motivation, drive, and reward centers naturally. And then when we introduce a substance or a behavior, what happens is those naturally firing neurotransmitters, what they are for motivation, drive, and reward stop. And then those things only get, like, clicked on. We could say when you use the drug or you engage in the behavior, right? And so it becomes an addiction. Because you don't feel motivation, drive, and reward without the substance or without the behavior. Because over time, it just overtakes your brain's natural ability to do this. And then the only way that we evoke these things in the brain Is through the substance or the behavior. This is how it becomes an addiction. Because we want to feel motivation, drive, and reward. And if we aren't producing that naturally in our brain because we've been using a substance, or because we've been gaining, Engaging in an addictive behavior, we have to continue to engage with that substance or addictive behavior to feel motivation, drive, reward. And so that's how it happens in your brain. No matter what you want to do behaviorally, eventually this just takes over in your brain. And it is stronger than people behaviorally a lot of the time and requires a lot of intervention. Okay, that's a lot of background about that to get to achievement addiction. So achievement addiction, which some people may know as workaholism. So being a workaholic is the same as achievement addiction. Seems like we've adjusted the term here to be a little softer and friendlier. People don't like workaholic, just like we don't like alcoholic. So we move to struggling with an alcohol use disorder as well as achievement addiction. You know, those kinds of things. But it's workaholism in a nutshell. And this is when a person's drive to achieve becomes so great that other areas of life, such as family, love life, health and leisure are neglected. In the effort to achieve more and more, it's the pursuit of ultimate meaning and satisfaction through achievement and work becomes all important, Therefore holding the keys to someone's happiness and fulfillment. And so it's a behavioral addiction, more or less. And so you can think about that in the same way that you would think about a gambling addiction, a shopping addiction, a sex addiction. It's a behavior you are engaging in, a gambling behavior, you're engaging in a shopping behavior, you're engaging in a sexual behavior, you're giving, engaging in an achieving behavior, striving for something, looking to obtain something. And the behavior itself is what plays on the brain. So in gambling, it could be winning. It's the idea of winning because we know that people continue to gamble even when they don't win. And that's how it becomes detrimental. Right. So it's the engaging in the behavior of gambling that's like the drug, if that makes sense. So engaging in the behavior of achieving, of striving for something, of trying to accomplish something, get an accolade, reach a status. It's. It's sort of. It's in the striving that the addiction comes. It's not necessarily in landing the achievement. It's the act towards and the ongoing behaviors towards, if that makes sense.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: It totally does. Something that popped out at me that you said is a short term reward, long term consequences.
I'm thinking in a work setting. And this is why I wanted to get into this, because I wanted to get this simple understanding, because there's a lot of people out there and there's a lot of people that are listening that go through a lot of these things and a lot of the things that you said, I believe affect things in the workplace as well. So.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: So when you said short term rewards and long term consequences, I, you know, you could be in a workplace setting where you see an opportunity, you take on a little bit more work because you, because you think that you're, you're, you know, you're, you know, it's a short term reward, but you're thinking that it's going to be, you know, the, the, the long term consequences of it are going to be that I'm going to move up or if you are in your owning a business, you're thinking, you know, if I, you know, if I do this little bit now, it's going to, or I do this extra, and instead of going out to dinner with friends and family, I'm going to take a few hours or I'm going to take the night, I'm going to do this because it's going to get me here. And a lot of cases, it may not necessarily work out that way, but in our mind we're thinking that that's going to be the case. So that was interesting that you said that to me and I'm sure that a lot of listeners think about it. I have tried to be conscious of that lately as far as doing this stuff during the day and closing my stuff out in the evening, so not worrying about that stuff after supper time and trying to concentrate on what's going on at supper and having a conversation with my wife at supper time, not having to do with any of that stuff. Sure, we might turn on a television show and watch the show, whatever, and we're talking about talking and we're talking about the show, but it has nothing to do with what I did during the day. I may ask her how her day was, trust me, how my day was. And then that's it. Like we tried it. So it's what you, when you said that it was it, it totally hit home. And I'm sure it's gonna hit home with many of the listeners here.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: So what I would say about like you having that cut off and then, you know, you ask your wife how her day was, she asked you how your day was, and then that's it. It's a boundary. You set a boundary around not discussing it further so as not to have that kind of information spinning around in your brain all the time, taking you away from the present moment, which is eating supper and connecting on some other things. Right. So, you know, boundary setting becomes important when we're talking about achievement addiction and or self care.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Right? Absolutely. So if you're dealing with somebody who has it, like, what would be your advice to help them to deal with achievement addiction? So let's say I'm. I'm a. I'm a workaholic, Sarah. I'm working hours and hours. You know, what would be a few things that you would say to me that would tell me, Andrew, you did say to me just a second ago, you know, having boundaries. So that would probably be one. What, what are a couple of other things that you would say to me or to the other. Business people are listening. Leaders, HR people, business owners. What. What would you suggest to them?
[00:25:46] Speaker B: Well, we have to maybe know a little bit of about. So, you know, I gave you like basically a scientific definition of addiction, a behavioral addiction, achievement addiction. But where does that come from? What. Why do people fall into addictions to begin with? Like, I could go on all day, but we're just going to talk about achievement addiction and why people fall into that to begin with. Seeking validation, proving oneself, getting ahead, financial need or gain status gain or recognition, driving for over here in the west, our definition of success. Success. That's how people fall into achievement addiction. So once we know that and have that in mind, you know, the first place I'm going to go is trauma, informed care and leadership. That's how we help somebody. And part of that is that people need to find purpose and mattering in a different way. This is a lot. I found a lot of this in the research too, that it's, it's mindset mattering and status and success that often lead to achievement addiction chronically. One statistic I found was that only 28,8% of people that fall into achievement addiction are doing it for financial gain or financial reasons. That means 72% of people that either self identify or others identify as achievement addicts or workaholics are doing it for a completely different reason than financial need or gain. That's a lot. You know, that's like 3, 4 of people are engaging in achievement addiction behaviors, compulsive behavior patterns for some other reason than money. And so, so why is that? People need validation. They need to feel important. They need to feel like they matter. A lot of times people learn that they matter through the things that they do or the things that they do for other people and receiving feedback, hopefully positive feedback or doing things that other people expect and then therefore receiving positive feedback. A lot of perfectionism is, is at a root cause for achievement addiction. We know perfectionism is not born out of anything healthy. So perfectionism is usually born out of some sort of unhealthy messages. And, and I would say, you know, it's really childhood. It's an unhealthy childhood or traumatic environment that you've come up with that has sort of shaped your brain into thinking, into believing that you need to achieve, you need to be perfect, you need to get things right all the time. You need to be advancing for people to recognize you, to pay attention to you, to love you, to care about you, to show up for you when you need it. So when we know that this is the reason that people fall into achievement addiction, how we help them to me becomes very obvious that we need to care for people more. If people need to find purpose and mattering in a different way, it will be hard to do this as society continues to push for more instead of sustaining what already is in general and business and people. Yeah. And stuff. So how to help someone with this is maybe asking people what it is they're seeking in achieving? What is it you are maybe missing out of life? Ask them how it makes them feel when they achieve something, how other people respond to them when they achieve something, how and why that is important to them. And if they have not thought about this, asking them these questions is really going to get them thinking about what am I doing this for? Because I think a lot of people just sort of get into, you know, it's a cycle, it's a pattern of behavior without stopping to think about why they're doing what they're doing. So anytime you can ask an open ended curious question, again, that's a trauma informed skill, folks. Trauma informed principles and practices include being open and curious rather than closed off and judgmental. So it's not assuming that somebody's achieving for this reason or that reason, but it's really asking and kind of like what you said I do frequently is asking and then listening for somebody to respond about why these things are important to them or how they got caught up in this or what message they got about achieving and what that means about them as a person. And so, you know, another way to help people is asking them, which is, it's probably true, but they maybe haven't thought about it. Is your identity wrapped up in achieving or your work? You know, is that how you self identify most sleep? Because if they answer yes to that, then we understand more of why they're doing what they're Doing so also how to help somebody. We're going back to trauma informed care, guys like, this is how we help people, period. No matter if you're a clinician or not. And this is how you help people to be healthy and well. And achievement addiction is not healthy or well.
And so if you recognize this in somebody asking them, you know, about their identity, being wrapped up in that, and then encouraging people to find identity outside of work. Right. And so that means we need to find purpose and mattering in the world outside of our work or what we accomplish, choose to do, produce, or produce for other people.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: I love when you said purpose of mattering in a different way.
Sure, it's probably not the same as imposter syndrome, but all the stuff that you were talking about is compact and very similar to implants, to imposter syndrome and just wanting to always be better and always worrying about. So you mentioned, why are we, we doing these things in a work setting? It could be many different things. It could be that they're moving, they're looking to move up, they're looking to grow within the company, or in a lot of cases, it could be somebody that's been working in a position for, let's say, 10 years, and then somebody new comes along and then the boss tells them, hey, I'd like you to show how the job that you're doing and get her integrated so that when, if you're away or you're not here, she could do the job for you or do parts of the job for you, but then that person is thinking in their head, well, oh my God, if they end up learning my job, then why are they going to need me? When in fact what it's actually doing is actually helping. Helping you to make your job easier. So you mentioned a keyword earlier in the podcast, which was burnout. So we're not burning out down the road. They're actually not looking to replace you. They're looking to help you so that nothing happens and that you are staying engaged long term. Is what you're. What. What I got from what you were saying.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That, that support. I'm going to say it again and I'll be a broken record about this until everybody everywhere understands trauma informed care. That's how we get around that. Right. So it's addressing that fear in that employee that's been there 10 years by their supervisory staff to say, hey, this isn't to replace you. You do great work. You've been here for 10 years. I'm adding this person to Learn your job to support you so that when you are away, you can be away and you don't come back to a bunch of work that's done. It's so that you're, you know, every minute of your 8 hour day, 40 hour week isn't spent on work. But we build in times for rest, for mental breaks, for other stuff. This comes with like open communication again trauma informed leadership skill, connection, compassion for, for other people again, trauma informed skills. That's how we address that kind of thing. And this is what I mean. We, we need to understand people's fears and feelings to be able to lead better and to be able to lead better around achievement, addiction, around anything, you know, around burnout, around over striving in the workplace, getting bored, you know, all of those things that lead to burnout and job turnover and poor outcomes and maybe affecting profits and bottom line on businesses that people are what make the business and if we don't invest in them and then communicate that effectively, well then they don't know that. And this is all part of the purpose and mattering. Like even that person at work wants to matter more than just the work they produce, right? And having somebody come in to support them and help them rather than reinforcing their imposter syndrome. We need some more open, vulnerable, authentic communication about what this actually means. And it's because I care about you as the human being and I want you to stay here and keep doing good work. And I know that you can't just keep doing it this way and produce the same results. So, so we're making a change to be more supportive to you as the human being behind the work.
[00:33:55] Speaker A: I'm going to add something here and then I'm going to ask you something here, what all you're talking about. So we're talk about having somebody work or coming in and we're worried about it. Many possible imposter syndrome. So there could be two scenarios here. I could be with on vacation or spending time with my partner or family. There's two scenarios that can happen. Either A, I'm got that person that's helping me out so I don't have to worry about that stuff when I'm spending time with loved ones or I'm going to have my email on, on my phone and I'm going to be sitting and watching a movie with family or partner or what have you or on vacation and this email comes in and it's urgent and I have to step away from whatever I'm enjoying to do that. So there's two different things. And I'll just add that I would rather have the latter to be able to spend time with the family and friends rather rather than having to step away, you know, throughout my time and answer that. Right. So that's kind of, kind of what I want to go to. So as we're talking about this, what makes, like, is it something that's. Is. Is this something that's under. Misunderstood by many?
[00:35:07] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. And some of that has to maybe do with the definition I gave in the beginning and people not understanding behavioral addictions and that behavioral addictions and substance addictions overlap and like the way they impact our brain functioning, which then translates into behavior. Brain functioning translates into behavior. That's how we get into patterns. That's how we get into patterns that have consequences that we can't stop, AKA addictions. Something else that I found really interesting when I was looking at some information on this is, you know, if we talk about. So let me get into a little bit of my psychology stuff and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which if people aren't familiar with it, it's a pyramid that has basic survival needs at the bottom, like food, clothing, housing, and then self actualization at the top, with safety and security, love and belonging, and self esteem as the ascendant stages in between. Okay, so in terms of like psychology and what we know, we expect suffering, psychological suffering, struggle, and those who are struggling to get their basic needs met. Like, it's impossible to get to self actualization if you're worried about where your food's going to come from and having safe housing. You know, we can add health care onto that and some other basic things. Like if we don't have those basic things, then it's hard to get beyond that. That's kind of being in survival mode and trying to survive by getting your basic needs met. We can't get to self actualization that way. So a lot of struggle for people that are just trying to get their basic needs met. We talked about this, like the whole premise of the name of my business and moving people from surviving, which is in a struggle space, you know, into thriving, which is not in a struggle space. So something I found interesting is that, you know, why is it I came across this question, why is it that those who seem to have it all are getting as sick as those who have nothing?
And that, you know, in the cushiest of Americans is how it was written. The most pressing needs are social in nature, not physiological. Meaning those like basic survival things. Physical food, Water, shelter, okay. And so while we expect those that are struggling to get the basic needs met, to be struggling, it's surprising to find that the same maladies, the same illnesses, the same mental illnesses are present in those who have an overabundance in life basics. And this is a result of achievement addiction, because it makes you sick, right? Like it makes you physically sick, it makes you mentally ill. It changes your brain to not be functioning the way it needs to. So it does change the physiology in that people get sicker, stay sick longer, die earlier in life. All of these things are a result of achievement addiction, any addiction, but achievement addiction included. And so that's a really interesting thing. You know, in the course of human history, those who had less were struggling the most. Where we are now, people who have a lot are still struggling as if they don't have anything.
And a lot of it has to do with this concept, especially over here in the west, cultural pressure and societal expectations to achieve more, gain more, earn more, spend more. There's a capitalism at its core which is constantly telling us like what we have isn't enough, what we do isn't enough, who we are isn't enough. Like we constantly have to be like striving for something. And that's number one, not really how we're made. We need rest, your brain needs rest, we need space, we need even boredom sometimes and nothing going on. Those things are good for your brain. But we don't live in a society that supports that at all. And we do not have workplaces that support that almost at all. You know, they want you grinding out as much as you possibly effing can in a 40 hour week. And it's like that's not the way folks. It just doesn't work for anybody. Even if people push themselves to do that, there are consequences. Maybe their employer is not going to, or their workplace is not going to consequences, but there will be consequences for that individual. And I think that piece is definitely misunderstood. You know, people that have a lot are as sick physically and mentally as people who don't have anything. That's not the way it, it should be.
But this is how it is, you know, when we make ourselves sick more or less in trying to achieve.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: So what you're talking, what you're saying is super interesting to me. And I think it's a cultural thing here. And I think they do intersect because I know for myself, when I've traveled and I've visited other, you know, you know, you know, going to, you know, let's Say, Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, all these different islands. And you, you know, and I was, you know, being younger, I can think about me thinking to myself, like, how do these, you know, you know, we're going to Cuba and finding out, you know, how these people, how, how long and how many hours they work and, and. And what they, you know, and. And what they, you know, what they make or their salaries. And it's, It's. It's a culture thing because they are happy. They live with their means. They live within their means, and they're happy. And you can see it in their faces. You can see it in their smiles. You could see that they're just enjoying themselves and they. They love what they do. And then. So I could definitely see the difference. And then we come back home and we, you know, many of us, we want more. We want to strive more. We want, you know, oh, I got that. You know, I got that. You know, we have our house, but, you know, and maybe it's, you know, their family is growing, but, you know, we need a bigger house. We need this. We need that. You know, I have this job, but I need to get this job. You know, I, I need to work with this leader. I need to get this business contract. And yes, we're trying to make money and survive, but yes, it's different cultures and it's, you know, understanding what the differences is and what people are happy, you know, with what. And how, you know, some people are happy with, you know, the minimal stuff, and some people are people who just want more. And that's, you know, that. That it is what it is. Right.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: I guess the pursuit of more often makes us sick. And I think people are missing that because the message is, like, the pursuit of more is great. It's the American dream. It's the marker of success, of having made it, you know, and it's like to be sick and unwell. I mean, everybody's leaving that part out, right? And so. And we've also failed to recognize it in ourselves. We'll make excuses about it. I'm just tired. I'm just. Whatever. It's like, no, you're just doing too much and you're putting that pressure on yourself or you're falling into the external pressure for that instead of finding your enoughness without that. Right. And your identity without that.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: So I know we've delved in a lot of stuff today.
So I just want to ask you, as we close things up here, what is one takeaway that you would like our audience to get from this episode?
[00:41:58] Speaker B: Guys, I said it, I say it all the time. I'll say it again succinctly. Trauma informed leadership skills are needed in every industry across the board. That is the takeaway. If you are in a position of leadership and you don't know what that is, then you have some work to do. If you are in a position of leadership and you know what that is and you are not employing it, you have some work to do. Advocating for people's wellness all around, physical, mental and psychological safety at work is important. We are not going to have a workforce if we do not take care of people behind the work. So the, and a way that we are going to address some of this achievement, addiction is through a change in leadership and expectation. You know, culturally this isn't, this is not going to shift quickly and it's not going to shift overnight. It's been this way for a long time and capitalism here in the west does nothing but support that. And so it's definitely countercultural to be in a trauma informed leadership space right now. And that means if you're trying to enact these things at your organization, non profit business team, otherwise then it's countercultural and it's probably countercultural to the organization that you're in. And if you're not all the way at the top at C suite, that doesn't mean that you can't start employing some trauma informed principles and practices with your team. And the ROI on that is amazing. I mean I could give you metrics that I don't have time for, but the metrics on employing trauma informed leadership has nothing but benefits for workplaces and for people. And so although it might be like a learning curve for people to understand this and enact it, once you do, there are benefits all around and it will touch on this pressure and expectation to push people to do more, to achieve more, to promote, et cetera, et cetera. And finding a way to sustain is really where we need to be. How do people sustain in their positions and have diversity and creativity and you know, get raises and things other ways and just moving up and doing more. And so trauma informed leadership is the way, it is the way, way of the future as me and like a lot of my, my team say. And then you know, we end it with trauma informed for the win. So that would be the takeaway guys, is trauma informed for the win? Everybody wins when we use this and I honestly can't see any reason not to except people that are resistant to change and or are benefiting from the current system.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: So first off, as I'm closing out here, I wanted as my, my call to action today would be for anybody listening, like share, follow and recommend this episode because I feel like it's super important and I feel that everybody and anybody should be listening to this and understanding the importance of it and this because this is why I do what I do. Sorry, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. Andrew, you've been the best.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: You are just an absolute gem.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: I appreciate.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: I could definitely, you know, we say some things and so many things about people. I can honestly and truly say that I could, I could not say enough good things about you as a person or as an individual. You are just super remarkable and inspiring and I, you know, I'm so lucky that I. The day that we've had our first phone call and our first conversation and I would say that's probably over a year and a half ago and here we are today, still talking, still conversing, still collaborating. And that's the magic of connection.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: Connection. That's right.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: And I am super happy and honored, thrilled and all around. Loved the fact that you and I are connected and I look forward to future conversations, future collaborations with you. Thank you for you. Thank you for doing all the good work that you do and thank you for just being such a kind and generous person.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: You say so many nice things about me. I'm honored and my heart is warmed at all the positive things you had to say. I appreciate that and it has been a pleasure working with you and connecting and finding where we align on so many things. And for those that don't know, Andrew supports me often off camera and will send me encouraging messages and. And supports me especially knowing like the work that I do is like draining and champion for things. And so I appreciate your support and your friendship.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: It goes. It goes both ways, friend. On behalf of myself and my guest Sarah, I'd like to thank you all for listening today and until next time, be safe and remember everybody, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: You have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content. Hit Subscribe.
