Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before we dive in today's episode, I want to take a moment to share something that's been on my heart, something I've been working on behind the scenes for a while now. I'm officially writing a book. This book is called let's Be A Practical Guide to Leading Through Change. And it's deeply personal to me. It's built from real experiences. The uncertainty, the challenges, the moments where I didn't have the answers but had to lead. This isn't just a leadership book filled with theory. It's about navigating uncertainty when there's no clear direction, building internal clarity when everything around us feels unclear, having courageous conversations, even when they're uncomfortable, and leading with value, especially when it's the hardest to do so. I'm also going into topics that don't get talked about enough, like what it feels like to be challenged, overlooked, and even bullied as an adult in a workplace. And how those moments shape the kind of leader you become. This book is for anyone who's ever thought, how do I lead when I don't feel ready? How do I show up when I don't have all the answers? And how do I stay true to myself in environments that challenge me? If this is you, this book is for you. I'll be sharing more about the journey behind the scenes moments and opportunities for you to be part of it as we go. So stay tuned because this is more than just a book. It's a movement around how we lead through change together. Alright, let's get to today's episode.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Good day, wonderful people, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved ones who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Our topic today is the cost of judgment and in leadership. My guest today is one gem of a human. Her name is Kat Paulinelli. Kat, welcome to the show. I am so thrilled and honored that you took the time to join us today.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Andrew. I am honored to be here.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: How is everything going? What's new? What's been energizing you these days? Give me the tea, give me the deets, give me it all. What's going on?
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Ooh, what's been going on? Okay, well, we just talked and I just got back from Charleston, so. Which has been a lot of fun and also a little bit of a reset right I think that sometimes that we need to get out of our space that we're constantly in just to kind of get fresh ideas and fresh perspectives. And I think being able to kind of recalculate what it is that we want in life.
And so these days, my focus has been on building this community that I have called the Dragon Reclaimed. And I'm having so much fun with it. I know you were just in my last event that I hosted as well, and I really am enjoying the opportunity to support people in their own journeys and give them ideas and ways to kind of push forward without them feeling like there's one direction that's correct and the rest is wrong.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: First of all, I'm so happy to hear that you had some time to relax and work. I know you were telling me off taping that it was a work trip, but you still found some time to do some fun stuff. And I do think that we do have to find that time to relax, reset, and recalculate. And I find that during the year, we obviously, it's the new year, new Year's new year. Then as we get to summer, I find that a lot of us get into the relaxing part of the year. Going to the beach, getting some sun. And then I find her when September hits, everyone's like, okay, it's like almost like a new year mindset. How are we going to finish off the year? What plans are we going to make for the following year? So I love when you're talking about mindset and reset.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. I think that all of us need it, regardless of where that's at. And I think that it's important to do that multiple times throughout the year. Right. And it doesn't mean it has to be something huge, but, you know, even a couple of days, just out of your space, out of your environment, in something new, in something different, it's. It's just nice to honestly kind of get away a little bit from everything that is familiar. It's also a really great way to challenge yourself to do things that you maybe haven't done before.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Before we get started, I always have a fun, thought provoking question that I ask all of my guests to get things going. Kat, are you ready for yours?
[00:04:38] Speaker B: I am ready.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Okay.
So your question, Kat, is what is something that you learned about yourself in the last year that has surprised you?
[00:04:51] Speaker B: That is such a good question.
Something I've learned about myself in the last year.
Ooh.
That I enjoy My downtime more than I thought I would.
And I'll explain. I have always been in an industry or a space of go, go, go. My background's in medical administration.
There is no stop when you're in the medical field. And that was the culture that I grew up in. It was the culture I kind of halfway raised my kids in for a really long time. And then I realized that maybe it didn't have to be that way. And this last year, I have really integrated taking breaks. So more specifically, especially at lunchtime, that is my time to, like, unplug, sit outside, sit at my kitchen table, and not have my phone in front of me and just be. Whether that's bored thinking, whatever it is, but just kind of disconnecting from half of the morning and kind of resetting for the rest of the day. And I thrive in that. It's so funny.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: I.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Now that I do it, I crave it, and if I don't get it, I am missing it.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Downtime is awesome.
And as I've gotten older, I enjoy it as well. I am very much of a social guy, getting to know people, talking to people. I'm always wanting to have people around, but there is that time where I just want to be like, okay, I need to just do whatever, watch monotonous, not thinking tv, or just sit there and look at my phone, look at funny videos, or just think about the day and what I've accomplished throughout the day. And that is enjoyable to me as well. And it's very much needed because we just can't be on 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Oh, no, absolutely not. It's exhausting.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: It is definitely exhausting for sure. Well, listen, Kat, thanks so much for having fun with me. I really appreciate your answer to get us started here. Who are you and what really drives you to do the work that you do?
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Oh, who am I?
I always love this question. So I'm a community builder. I'm a speaker, I'm a podcaster, but I'm also a community builder focused on helping women and men get through the identity crisis, where, you know, we get to this point in our life where we've. We've done the things we've lived, the spaces that everybody told us that we should, and now we're like, well, what the heck? Who am I? What am I supposed to do? Is this even actually who I am? And creating a safe space for people to find themselves in that, or what I call reclamation. Right? Coming back to yourself, and that has really been what's been lighting me up lately on top of the. The talks that I do with law enforcement and universities, which is definitely a little bit more around my personal journey and the things that I've been through. But I do find that regardless of what any of us have been through, there is always something that we can connect to. There's always some overlap, and it takes out being a female thing or a male thing, and it just makes it a human thing. And that's one of the things that I love being able to do, is have those conversations where we're creating that type of support and gender is taken out of it, and we recognize people as individuals, and there we are able to support each other on what we're going through.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Safe space is what lit me up there. And I think we're all craving and looking for a safe space.
And I've noticed that in the last five years that that's been increasingly important to people.
And I think it should be important, and I think it always should have been important, and maybe it was. But I just think it's something that we are talking about in the boardroom and outside the boardroom, and I just think it needs to be talked about more.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Especially when it comes to your. Your safe spaces. When you are at work, we. There's always a Persona or a perception that is put out there in society of who we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to be that individual depending on what space that we're in. And unfortunately, that means that we tend to put on a mask to match those spaces, and we hide who we really are so much that we get to a point to where we actually forget those pieces of us which make us unique. And that's probably one of my favorite things to learn about people, is the differences.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: So, Kat, we all make judgments, often without realizing it. How can leaders recognize when their assumptions or biases are influencing the way that they lead, hire, or communicate?
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Oh, okay. So this is.
This is a question that I feel like is. Is much bigger than the simplified answer. But let me give you kind of a little bit of what I Talked on my TEDx talk, which is
[00:10:10] Speaker A: I
[00:10:10] Speaker B: remember listening to a podcast at one time, and they distinctively said, be careful how you judge others, because what you judge outward, you also judge within.
And that was something that really stuck with me, because what I realized in a lot of things that I was doing in my life is I was projecting these judgments onto other people, whether it was someone I passed in the store or someone that I was dealing with when I was in the. In the corporate space, and I was also judging myself about it. So whether you're doing it to where you actually notice it or the simple fact that you hold yourself to a standard and then you expect everyone to meet that standard without actually getting to know the individual. And that's where judgment can be so harsh. And we don't even realize that we're doing it to ourselves. But I always tell everybody to really pay attention to how you are judging others because you are, in some form or fashion, judging yourself about that. And that is, especially in the workplace. Right. Is huge when it comes to hiring or being a leader. Because if you are leading a team of anyone, but all you do is judge your people, then you are not getting to know the individual individuals that you work with, which means you're not being curious and open to them. And if you're not being open with them, you're not being open with yourself. That right there already cuts off communication, that cuts off trust, that you're already looking at a downfall before things even get started.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: And I think people don't understand or don't realize that there is judgment out there. But people judge themselves harsher sometimes than they judge others.
Absolutely. And I think people don't realize that. And when you're judging someone, I think we have to realize what that person is judging about themselves because they might be going through something more difficult or their thoughts are harsh on themselves and they might be having a hard time dealing with it.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think that there's enough judgment going around, whether it's things you see on social media, parents, friends, people that you're around in your community, you, yourself, and the way that you see yourself.
We need more kindness. We need more curiosity. We need more thought into what we are doing, how we are speaking to individuals and understanding that first and allowing the judgment to be something later. Because your brain makes up a judgment within a matter of a nanosecond. Right. I mean, as soon as you meet someone, your brain has already decided if they're a threat or if they're good for you to be around. Right. And so the brain is built to fill in the blanks before it has all the information, because it has to have a complete story, which is terrible. It's. It's definitely a great safety mechanism. But it also means that we have to be very consciously aware that that is what the brain is doing. And the more that you can ask questions, the more that you can be open, the more that you allow your brain to pull information in, to fill in the blanks that way instead of creating its own.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: So Kat, from your experience, what are some of the hidden costs of judgment for individuals, teams and organizational culture that leaders may not immediately see
[00:13:40] Speaker B: when it comes to judgment?
I know we talked about this just a second ago. I feel like it becomes a spiral and it spirals very quickly.
Again, you're judging someone as soon as you see them, they're judging you as soon as you see them. And we're already making those assumptions on how things are going to be handled, how things are going to be dealt with, how communication is going to go. And so we're already breaking trust, we're already breaking communication.
And it you really have to work, especially as a leader in an organization to be able to one, open up yourself and know how you operate and how you want to be treated and then amplify that and project that onto the people that are around you so that you can build the trust and the communication. You want to be able to build a space where you're trusted in a sense that even if you have to give reprimand or if you have to to criticize someone and critique them on something, they're not going to immediately shut down. Because that's what we're taught to do, right? We get some form of feedback, we immediately put the guard up. We're like, nope, I'm not hearing that. But if you come at it from a leadership space where you are asking questions, where you are getting to know how someone, someone operates, when you are getting to know how they work as a person, that's going to then help you build this rapport. But it's also going to help in the hard times when it is easy for you to judge and be like, oh, it's because I didn't do this and remind you to ask the questions first. Which again opens up this line of communication with the people that you're working with and that's what you want. Because it's not in the good times that everybody talks, everybody's great at talking about that. It's in the difficult times where we are really challenged. And that's where it's really important to make sure that we are not allowing judgment to run the show and that we are having open ended conversations and open to feedback ourselves. I don't believe that leadership means that you are above everyone.
A leader to me means you are willing to lead, but also be open for others to feed into you. So you can be the teacher and you can be the student at the same time, that is a good leader, in my opinion. And that then is going to create open amounts of trust and understanding and communication with anyone that you're working with.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: You said the word spiral. So when something spirals or when a situation spirals, for me, I'm thinking of the word chaos. When chaos happens, how do we all react in the chaos is super important. We're being watched as far as what's happening in each situation, and how we react is how someone else is going to react. So if you are a leader and you are spiraling, then the people underneath you are going to spiral. If someone that's on your team is spiraling, then you're going to spiral as a leader as well. So you said that word before communication. That is huge, for sure.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I agree with you. I think that it is in the moments of chaos that we have to be very aware of how we have built up the team that we're with or built up the people that we are leading. And that way there is an understanding. You don't have to pretend like everything's going to be okay. You can sit in it with them as you're working through it, but there is a sense of trust that's there to know that you're going to get through it. And I think that that's super important because again, we put that mask on, especially when we're seen as a leader of like, oh, I have to pretend like everything's okay and I've got everything handled. And I do think that it makes more sense to level with the people around you and not pretend like you are so much higher, because then you allow them to see you as an actual human being. And you also create a sense of community. Right. A sense of like, okay, they understand, but it seems like they. They've kind of got it under control. Maybe I can calm down just a little bit. So you really are kind of setting an example as well in front of them.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: You mentioned the word trust before. I want to dig in a little bit deeper here on your thoughts on trust here. So trust and psychological safety are built over time, but can be damaged in an instant. How does judgment impact trust? And what can leaders do to create an environment where. Where people feel seen, heard, valued instead of judged?
[00:18:25] Speaker B: So when we're talking about this, the judgment has got to take a backseat. That's the biggest thing. Trust is such an important term. And trust is not built through just communication. It's built through the small things that we see. The small acts that we do, how we recognize someone, how we give space, space for someone. Brene Brown actually talked about this on a podcast recently in the Diary of a CEO. And she was talking about this marble jar that she was working with with her daughter. And she was discussing with her about a situation that had happened at school. And she said, your friends that you trust have a jar of marbles, and a marble gets put in every time that they do something. And she'd asked her, what do they do to fill that marble jar? And what was interesting is it was so simple. Something like, she saved my seat at lunch when she knew that I was running late when we were at a soccer game. She remembered my entire family's name. And that's really hard because she has two different sides of the family. So it was these little simple things that for her, really built this trust in this marble jar that continues to stack up. And as leaders, I think that sometimes we get stuck in just the external recognition of like, oh, you did great, so here's your plaque or here's your certification, or here's a Starbucks card. But what we're not paying attention to are all the little things, right. Have you checked on them to see how they're doing? Did you know that their mom, dad, dog, brother or whatever is going through something? And are you having that conversation to check in on them again? It's bringing it back down to a human level.
That human connection is going to build that trust.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Everything you just said, there is so much gold there. I just, I just love it. And I love the marble jar thing. And I think I talk a lot about puzzle pieces, and I think the puzzle piece to this is trust fits with communication.
Communication fits with the impact that it creates. So we have to look at all the different puzzle pieces that fit into this conversation or scenario that we're looking at.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that we have to remember too, that, you know, a lot of times in leadership, we're in a workspace and that's great. However, all of us have a personal life outside of that, and that is the majority of the space that we live in. Work is just a component of it. And if all you're doing is focusing on work and work related and things like that, you are missing the other 80% of that individual and what makes them them. What makes them tick, what's important to them.
And so again, I think that we need to put the human aspect back into life in general and start there before we can move anywhere else.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: So we all know that no Leader is perfect. But can you share a time when your own perspective or judgment was challenged? And what experience taught you about becoming a more effective leader?
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Ooh. Okay, this is a really good question. So a long time ago, when I was in corporate, I actually was a trainer, and I was also the office manager. So I did all the hiring. I brought people in and trained them in their positions. And for me at that time, I wanted to be as effective as possible.
That meant that every person that came in got trained the exact same way that I thought that they should be trained, regardless of how they learned, regardless of how they did things. And I remember having a woman who came in and we were working through something, and she said, well, you know, I thought about this, and I was thinking that this actually might work better. And I remember immediately wanting to shut her down. But it was also one of the first times that I realized I don't have all of the ideas. I can't have all of the ideas. I'm not meant to have all of the ideas. And taking a step back for a moment and being open to just receive what it is that she said, instead of shutting it down, actually allowed us to create a better system to improve more. And that made me realize, like, okay, maybe I do need to ask a little bit more on the front end of how they learn, how they operate so that we're still training in a way that aligns with everyone, and they're going to effectively pick it up because it makes sense for them.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: I think what it boils down to is that people are uncertain, and whether they want to admit it or not, there's certain things that they're uncertain about. And if you're open to learning and growing, that's going to get you further. So you just learned by telling this story.
You learned something through that, and you probably didn't do that again because you learned something about that. And that probably brought you a little bit closer to that person because of that. And that rapport is super important.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I think that that is true. Leadership is realizing that you can be the teacher, but also be the student. You don't have to have all the ideas. You don't have to have it all figured out. Just because you're in a position that by societal terms means that you're higher up than someone doesn't mean that you can't be open to feedback and changes and shifts that other people can bring in. I think that's the beauty of all of us having different lived lives, because we all Come in with different perspectives. And that to me is. Is really cool because that means that you could have experienced something that I didn't. And because of that, your perspective on the exact same situation is different. And now I get to choose. Do I want to keep my perspective or do I want to shift it and incorporate a little bit of yours and into your point, Andrew.
It gives us the space to be able to grow and evolve, which as a human being, that is one thing you should be doing for the rest of your life. Otherwise you just become stagnant and it becomes the same and you're not fulfilled. At least for me.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: No, I think for most of us, for sure. Before we wrap up here, Kat, what is one takeaway they'd like our listeners to remember from this episode?
[00:24:55] Speaker B: If I could give one takeaway, I think that across the board, whether you work for someone, you. You are the owner and people work under you or you work independently, judgment is something that every single one of us faces on a regular basis.
That is never going to change. However, you can teach yourself to not allow it. To rule your entire life, to rule how it is you make decisions, to rule how it is that you handle interactions with other human beings. I think that it's not one of the fun things that we go through. And if you can teach yourself to just act, ask a couple of questions, you will be amazed at how much it opens your eyes to be able to see more in the world and get more of that full picture in instead of your brain just creating whatever it wants.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: So well said, Kat. My call to action like share and follow this episode.
Kat, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today as a guest.
What I admire about you is your strength.
Your ability to lead with humanity, how you help people feel seen, understood and less alone.
Your ability to choose compassion over bitterness, the lasting impact you make with every person that you meet and your magnetic energy.
It was an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you today, Kat. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate that.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: You're very, very welcome. On behalf of myself and my guest, Kat, I'd like to thank you all for listening. And until next time, be safe. And remember, everyone, that if we all work together, we can accomplish anything you
[00:26:56] Speaker B: have been listening to. Let's be diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content. Hit subscribe.
