Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Opinions expressed in this episode are personal. They do not necessarily reflect the views of this streaming platform.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another edition of let's Be Diverse. I am your host, Andrew Stout. This episode is dedicated to all my loved one who supported me through this journey. Those who have left us will always be in our hearts and will never be forgotten. Today we're talking about authenticity and identity and and my guest I'm so happy to have to help me navigate through this is Heather Wallander. Welcome to the show, Heather. I am so happy to have you on today.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Hi, Andrew. Thank you so much for having me on. I am excited to be here.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Very welcome. How are things with you? What's going on? What's new? Give us the D, the deets, the T. Give us it all. What's going on?
[00:00:45] Speaker C: So I have had an interesting couple of days. I as I posted about or if anyone has seen some of my posts, I am currently going through my own discrimination battle working through all this stuff with HR and things like that. And I recently or yesterday had a run in with my California CRD filing where a lot of the complaints that I had were missed and had to go through that and update it. So it's been a stressful couple of days, but we've got it forward momentum going again. So I'm, you know, moving forward with that. But of course also thinking a lot about identity, like who am I and who am I when I'm trying to be authentic and what does that mean as I try to be more vocal and outspoken on issues that matter. So this is very, very top of mind for me.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Yes, it's very real to you, for sure. It sounds like. And it's probably something that a lot of people have gone through or people will go through in the future. So I like the fact that you're trying to hone in on yourself and figure yourself out and figure out where you want to be and, and who you want to be and, and all that stuff. So I admire you for that, that's for sure.
[00:01:47] Speaker C: I appreciate it. It's an ongoing journey. Right. Because we're always changing and adapting to the things around us.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. We continuously adapt and we continually learn, for sure. Well, I'm sure that when this comes out, I'm sure that people will be looking and listening to this, for sure. And I'm sure that everything is going to turn out great for you and you seem like a strong individual. So I'm sure I have no worries or anything about you. I'm sure it's going to come out good for you.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: A strong individual, but no less anxious for this to get over. I think as anybody anybody is that's ever been through this is like you look forward to the day. It'll be weird. It's been ongoing for two years, so it will be, it's become part of my identity, actually. Very on topic, but it is also just, it's, it's interesting to be like at some point, at some point in my life this will be done. And I both look forward to that. And I think there will be, you know, an adjustment as well, though, like this is going to be a major battle in my life is something that's been a major part of it. And who am I after, after this ends?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah, because you might be a different Heather six months from now than you are now. So that'll be interesting to see who you are and who you've developed. And that's okay. If you're a different Heather, you just might learn through the process of who you are. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely. And I want the listeners to understand it is okay if we change periodically throughout our lives or I'm a different person than I was seven years ago. My mindset and things I think about and the things I believe in are totally different than they were six, seven years ago, that's for sure.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Yeah, same.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: So I'm so anxious to get into this topic because I, I think it's truly important and you kind of gave us a little bit of teaser. So I'm sure listeners are going to be excited about it as well. But before we begin, I always have a fun, thought provoking question to ask my guests to get things going. Are you ready for yours today, Heather?
[00:03:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm anxious. I don't know what to expect. Some of the previous questions that you asked on previous episodes, so we'll see.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: So this question has been asked before. Your question is if you could choose an animated character, who would it be and why?
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Man, I feel like I don't have a good answer for this. The very first thing that comes in, I don't know that I watch that much animated, like, content, to be honest with you. It's been a long time. So the only thing that comes to mind is Disney movies, which is problematic in its own sense. Just the story that some of those things those shows tell or those movies tell. But I would say that, yeah, literally the only one that comes to mind is the Little Mermaid. And that's because I always loved The Little Mermaid. And so that's the only one I can think of is it's, you know, my all time favorite movie though I don't know how at all that relates to who I am or who I am trying to be. But that's the first one that comes to mind.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: I can answer that. When you're talking a little bit about the things that you're going through, a Little Mermaid kind of brings you back to a happy place, a comfortable place, a place where you had no worries or anything like that. So I think that's kind of where what I'm thinking where you were going on now.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: It's definitely, you know, when I rewatch animated movies like it's or Disney movies or go to Disneyland or Disney World, you know, it's, it's that happy place where you forget a bit that what it's like to be an adult.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Every once in a while I'll flip on YouTube and I'll throw on some old Bugs Bunny to kind of bring me back to the day of when I was watching all that stuff when I was a kid. Saturday morning was huge because there was like all kinds of stuff on back to back to back in the morning. So get your cereal and you start watching. So yeah, it is definitely a happy time for sure.
Well listen, I think your answer was spot on, not knowing what the the question was. So I appreciate you having fun with me. Why don't we start off with you telling us about a little bit about yourself and your why.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: Yeah. So my name is Heather. As you've said, I have spent my career doing a lot of different jobs. I actually got started in outside sales, moved into marketing, then went into engineering. I took my first coding class and I just was fell in love with it. I loved just the logic and the building of the puzzles kind of how I describe it. I've always loved puzzles and that went into I didn't like though the isolation of it, of working kind of independently. And I learned about a role called sales engineering which is customer facing, doing demos, things like that. And I just love the role. I genuinely felt like it was the role I was destined to do. And there's something to be said that is just magical when you find that that perfect role for you. And then I found a product I really loved to sell which was lucky and tied to this topic around identity. For a few years there I, you know, really got to lucky and got to achieve like this magical place that I think many adults don't where I just genuinely was passionate about what I did, I loved it. I just liked going to work. I liked the people I worked with and then unfortunately thought I had face discrimination of my career. And I ran into somebody that was. I sometimes describe it as kind of a brick wall of discrimination, which is when you face it and you're. There isn't any breaking through. Like, we, a lot of us face objective bias and we think, you know, we've overcome that and because of that, we know what we're going to do with it. And that's how I was. But when I faced somebody that was truly just going to discriminate and was manipulating the world around me to see me a certain way and was playing on the subjective bias of others, it changed my whole life. I spent the next 18 months fighting this battle internally and then with the lawyer before I finally left. And because I found myself again just crying one Tuesday and decided this is time to leave, I posted. I tell people all the time. They often will say, I have. Many, many people have said, have praised me for my bravery of posting on May 1st of this year. And I tell everybody, like, I appreciate it, but it wasn't an act of bravery. It was an act of defeat. And, and I often get emotional when I say this, but I say that like it wasn't me trying to make my stand or anything. I just felt like I was walking away from my career. I was defeated, I was broken. I felt like everything had been stolen from me and the only thing I could do was warn others at the company. It was the only thing that I was like, I don't know what this is going to do for me. I don't know if I'm ever going to even see justice for myself. And then I went viral. It resonated with so many people and I've spoken to so many since then, and it's changed my life. I. Six months ago, we talked about this. You know who I will be in six months from now? But I can tell you, six months prior, I didn't think I would be on this podcast. I didn't think I would be speaking out about these issues. I didn't think I would be an advocate. I would be writing to my legislators. I would be, you know, fighting these battles still. And if anything, the more women I've spoken to, it's only given me more conviction. Now I'm building an app that will help more women, actually, sorry, not just women, but more people fight back against what I see as a really systemic, unfair system that is just not designed to Protect us. So that's kind of who I am, because I really was one person just trying to climb the corporate ladder, had very big ambitions. I wanted to climb up to the C suite. I loved what I did. I loved being a manager. I wanted to become a director, all of those things. And then I walked away from my career because I couldn't take the discrimination anymore and the retaliation.
And now I'm trying to forge the path as a founder and as an advocate, and I am stumbling all the way there. But, you know, forward progress. And so I'm still figuring out who I am. I guess the truth is, is, you know, that's a bit about how I've come to be where I am. The truth is that the path forward is still.
Is still developing. So I don't know what it will be, but that's who I. Who I am and how I got here.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: So. One of the things I talk about a lot, and I'm sure people hear me mentioning this a lot, is that we continuously learn, and as a leader, we need to continuously learn. I know myself. I always say to myself, if I ever said to myself that we.
I know everything, and that's it. I don't need to learn anything anymore. I don't need to take any more courses. I don't need to listen to anybody talking. I don't need to listen to podcasts. I know it all. That's when I feel like I'm gonna get myself in trouble. So I always made a promise to myself, and I continuously do that every day, and that's.
[00:09:48] Speaker C: I.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: What to continuously learn and continuously grow. I don't know where it's gonna go, where it's gonna lead for me, but I know that it makes me feel good to learn something new every day. And that's probably why I love doing these podcast episodes, because I learn something new every episode or I have a takeaway every episode. So that's kind of. That's why I enjoy them. But I also feel like, you know, you just need to love what you do, and it seems like you loved what you were. What you were doing, and it just didn't. It just didn't work out. I mean, I think we all have a plan. There's a plan for us. There's reasons. I firmly believe that there's a reason for everything. And sometimes it ends up being a good situation or a bad situation. However, there's always a reason. So I commend you for. For doing what you believe in and talking about what you believe in. I Think it's super important.
[00:10:37] Speaker C: Thank you. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's hard not to listen to the naysayers, but it's incredibly important that you, you find a way to, to push through and, you know, I guess listen to that authentic self that's inside of you because it can be, it can get washed out sometimes in terms of the volume, when you have so many negative people or you have negative people around you.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: So why don't we start off here? What is the difference in your opinion between identity and authenticity?
[00:11:08] Speaker C: So my opinion, identity is who you are, whether you like it or not. Again, going back to, uh, I actually used the question you asked me when this opened up. Like, at the end of the day, I don't watch a ton of animated. I haven't watched anything. I don't have an answer ready, but there's a compelling feeling that I want to be, I both want to be genuine, but I also want to have a good answer. And so there is the identity of who I am. I'm not somebody that watches a lot of animated content and I don't know how to answer this, or I am somebody who wants to be professional, or I am somebody that wants to be these things. But at the end of the day, I am also a, instead of my identity, which is, you know, a combination of my upbringing, my environment, my genetics, all of these things. Factored it in, factored in. And authenticity, I think is really how you show up and whether or not you embrace that. And I do think there's something to be said, though it does take time to get comfortable with who you are, whether whatever it is that's defining that. Like, for example, I come from a very blue collar family. And when I posted and went viral, there were people that made comments about whether or not I had. Because I hadn't gone to like an Ivy League school or whatnot. And in that moment, it hurt my feelings, right? Like there's a second of like, feeling a moment of like, oh, shame. Because that's what is intended by those comments. And then you get to a point where you're like, I'm okay with that. Like, I am really proud of my education. I came, I am a first generation college graduate and then I went on for my master's. And I am very proud of what I've accomplished. But I think it's very, very difficult to be truly authentic and own your identity, regardless of what it is, because all of us want to be some. We all want to have this. We all. I think everyone has this ideal, idealized version of themselves that they want to project to the world. And it takes a very long time to merge who you actually are with who you are projecting. And then when you get there, that's when you're truly authentic. And up until that point, you're often, you know, trying to conceal the identity, because you can't be. You can have identity without being authentic, but you can't be authentic without knowing what your identity is, if that makes sense. So I think there's, you know, overlap, but that you can operate without being authentic and projecting something else to the world. And it. The best place is when you kind of get to somewhere where you are truly just embracing who you are and who you are meant to be. But it takes a lot. And I mean, even then, there are going to be doubts because as we talked about earlier, you change and you adapt, and you are constantly reacting to the world around you. And who your identity is can change with that. You know, who you get married to modifies your identity a little bit because their Personas become part of yours. Where you live can also become part of your identity, because how you, you know, if you live in. I have family. I'm visiting them in Texas, and we are talking, you know, making a joke about, you know, California people that say y' all after they've been here a while, you know, but who's to say that that's not who they are authentically? If you've been here long enough, you know, like, who's to say that isn't who they have become? And I think it's a really interesting thing because your identity's evolving, which then, ironically, makes authenticity constantly evolving and very, very difficult because you have to be constantly comfortable with knowing who are you actually and who are you just trying to pretend to be.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: I love everything that you said there as you were talking. It made me think conversation that I had a few weeks back with someone, and they were asking me, how do I come across so genuine? And I think it's who I am, and it's also how I want to show up. So if you saw me, Heather, at a conference or if I was doing a speech or this podcast or we spoken on the phone a couple times, I want to be that same person.
I don't want to change. I don't want it to waver.
[00:14:42] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I think especially people will notice it if they really do genuinely try to live their life as authentic people. Because if you are authentic yourself, you want to Surround yourself by other authentic people, which then, you know, it's going to be those people that are going to perceive that you are presenting a different person depending on who you were in front of. And we'll probably also be, I don't want to say bothered by that, but be aware of that and storing that information for just awareness.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: So how do you think one deals with a lack of identity? Identity or authenticity?
[00:15:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I don't know that you can lack identity. I think you can lack awareness of your identity or you can try to reject your identity. You try to reject who you are, who you like, what you came from or whatnot, because you want to. You know, if you think about it, somebody that suddenly becomes rich or whatnot, like maybe they want to disown their, their, their upbringing of limited means or whatnot, but that never is not a part of you. That is always going to be your identity. So I don't know that anyone lacks identity as much as they might lack awareness or, or spending time thinking about it or just a desire to. I'm trying to think of the right word for it, but just essentially just an overall inability to really just resonate it or kind of be okay with it or at one with it so that they can accept it in terms of the lack of authenticity. So it's hard, especially when you're going through, I think, and actually I should say it's hard depending on the situation. I have run into plenty of people who are not authentic and it's easier for me to. And I think I always recognize it, to be honest, as a sign of insecurity of. And what I mean by that is not necessarily what they're putting out there, but just awareness that they're not comfortable in their own skin. And if anything, I feel sad for these people because I think it's not. It just seems incredibly exhausting to be trying to live in this world as somebody other than who you actually are. And so it just makes me sad for people that feel like they have to change their skin essentially every single time they're in front of a different person. Because to your point, if you're the same person when you go to dinner and when you're giving a speech and when you're doing this or when you're doing that, it's just easy because you're just who you are. But if you're trying to always be something different to different people, it can, I imagine, be pretty exhausting trying to change that. I mean, the last time I remember doing that you know, because I don't think any of us are completely immune to it. It's probably high school, and it was exhausting, and I didn't feel comfortable. And it never got me comfortable in my own skin. Right. It wasn't until much later in life.
And now I think when I was going through my. My fight, which was something where I really needed to be surrounded by authentic people, I would say I had less of a tolerance for it. And I don't mean that that necessarily meant that I was shunning anybody who I kind of saw as being. Trying to play both sides or being fake, but much more aware of who I was letting into my life. So if I am not going through anything significant, if I am just kind of moving through life and I. It's. It doesn't. I can tolerate the people being around that are. Are. I don't necessarily trust or I don't necessarily believe everything that they're saying because they're trying to play both sides or accomplish something for themselves. I'll be a little bit more like just aware of it and continue on, because at the end of the day, it's not my job to tell them who to be or to be comfortable in their skin. But when I'm going through something, I will distance myself from the people that. Because there is danger in somebody. In my personal opinion, there is danger in somebody who is not authentic with themselves, because you can't trust what they're saying to you, and you don't know if what they're saying to you is true. And you also don't know what they're saying when you're not there. And so I think it really depends on where I'm at. I'll probably. I hope I someday get to a point where I don't need to worry so much about how authentic the people are around me. Not in the sense that I don't want authentic people around me, but because it's. It's hard. It's hard to have to cut people from your life because they're not who you need them to be or they're not showing up. But again, I tend to. Not. I tend to always find reason or try to find a reason for why people do the things they do, even when they might hurt others, which is like. Again, it goes back to, like, just awareness. Like, they're not comfortable in their own skin. They're not ready to be their authentic self. And in realizing that, there's probably reason for that, that's kind of. It varies. But right now I think I just try to distance myself from people who, who are not authentic because they, they have the power to hurt you if they are not sure who they are because their loyalties may change and their opinions can change depending on who they're in front of.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah. When you are talking about identity and authenticity, if I'm one working at a company and I'm taught a certain way and then I become leader or manager in organization, I may want to be like that individual, but it may not be the right way. And that kind of made the people around them or on their teams lose trust and you might lose their engagement a little bit. So that comes from training and continuously learning. If you're trying to figure out your identity and your authenticity, I think you continuously learn about that as well. The way that you lead five years ago might not be the same way now, but you're learning and you're evolving is where I'm going.
[00:19:50] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: So is identity and authenticity influenced by diversity?
[00:19:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Because I think our identity, as I mentioned, our identity is so much of who we are. Our identity is just who we are. And so who you are changes your. Whatever characteristic of diversity that you have or don't have, it influences the way that the world that you see the world and how the world sees you. And it's just a fact of life. And it doesn't all have to be bad things. Right. Like, we can learn from each other, we can understand the different experiences that we have.
And I think that's, that's very important. It's important to have that open mind. But I do think that that is key to it, is that, for example, going back to talking about work. I've talked to multiple women, for example, recently who have struggled with PTSD when it comes to returning to work and experiencing that. And if you are reject the idea that like a diversity is a part of this or that how they've experienced work or how they've experienced work environments could be influenced by how they're able to show up or how they're able to trust others, or how they're able to interact with their co workers and how they're able to just feel comfortable in their skin within the working environment. I just think there's got to be more resources around some of this because I think that far too often we want to ignore diversity and we want to pretend we're all the same. And personally I feel like I don't. Maybe others will disagree with me, but I don't believe that the idea of saying, I don't see color is a good idea because it rejects the idea that we've had different experiences because of who we are, what we look like, where we're from.
And I think it's actually more important to not say that and just assume that we're, because that assumes an equal playing field and it's just not the case and allowing for that. But I do think there needs to be more acceptance of different identities as well. Like, it goes back to, like, for example, women. And I'll speak to this a lot because it's just my personal lived experience, but this idea of, like, women, if they cry, therefore they're emotional, therefore they can't ever be good leaders. But you know what? I think I was an excellent leader because I felt more deeply because I was more emotional. Now, I. That doesn't mean I was showing up today to work every day crying. In fact, most of my battle with discrimination, nobody had any idea what was going on because I very specifically refrained from revealing that to others. I didn't want to burden others. But I do think that my higher level of emotions also inclines me to be more empathetic, more open to discussion, more. More inclined, more in tune with their emotions and sensing when something might be wrong with them. And I think that this goes back to the identity and the authenticity and being able to accept that just because somebody else's identity, who they are, is different than who you are, that doesn't mean that they are being less authentic than you. It doesn't mean that they are less capable than you. It just means that it's going to show differently. Like, it's no different than going authentic. You asked. Going back to your question earlier is like being the same person and showing up the same way every single place that you go to. But I, unfortunately, I think there's still this kind of. This assumption that everyone needs to be the same sometimes in certain groups. And that is. And like, if there's no acceptance for that diversity, that difference in being authentic and true to your identity and that being okay, then unfortunately, people don't have a choice but then to not be authentic to themselves. Like, they can't be authentic in the professional world because the professional world won't accept them. And so, you know, that goes back to definitely recognizing that, you know, the world needs to change. So for people, we just need more acceptance of differences. And. And we need to stop saying because you are different than me, like that means you are wrong. Like, maybe, maybe a woman's more emotional but maybe that makes her more empathetic, and maybe as a. As a result, she can catch something earlier that, you know, maybe the male leadership around her might not have caught would be the impact to the team members or in terms of the response. And I'm sure there are many other examples out. Out there as well. And I don't want improvise and. Because, like, there are some running through my head, but, like, they're not my personal lived experiences, so I don't want to speak to them. But I'll just say that I think, you know, I think we need to encourage more of it. We need to encourage more of the diverse identity to come out and allow those people to be authentic.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: In closing, what is one takeaway that you'd want our audience to get from this episode?
[00:24:03] Speaker C: I would just say, you know, book for people. We've talked about this a few times throughout this call. Like, look, try to not jump to conclusions that because somebody responds or reacts differently than you do, that that makes it wrong. And instead, when you're looking for authenticity or like the good people in your life, look for how they. How they change or how they stay the same in different environments. Because I can just say, for me, I have made some of this battle for me against discrimination. Yes, it revealed people's true colors, and I lost people, and that was really hard. But you know, what was crazy is I also made some of the strongest relationships I've ever had in my life because I learned what it meant to be authentic. And I learned that everyone kind of shows it differently. Some of the people around me are much more vocal and outspoken. Some of them are quietly in my corner, and it's a little bit different for everyone. But I think just learning to get comfortable having those conversations and an awareness that we have to get more. Have to be more willing to accept different identities so that everyone can show up more authentic, because we're all going to be better for it, I would say.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Heather, I want to take the time to thank you for coming on today. One of the things that I caught from our conversations was that you were such a good speaker. You have so much passion for yourself and for what you do and for what you believe in. I want to commend you for that. And again, I want to thank you for coming on. It means a lot for you, for you to take the time to chat with me today.
[00:25:28] Speaker C: Thank you. And I appreciate it. As you know, we all struggle to kind of get over the negative things that are said to us and accept that that maybe it's not always true. So I very much appreciate you commenting on the way that I speak or my speaking capabilities. And I really appreciate you having me on. I enjoyed our conversation.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: I did as well. On behalf of myself and my guest Heather, I'd like to thank you all for coming on today and listening. Until next time, Be safe and remember that if we all work together, everyone, we can accomplish anything.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: You have been listening to. Let's Be Diverse with Andrew Stout to stay up to date with future content, hit subscrib.
